Is Self-Care Selfish? | Ep. 16

Dane: [00:00]
It's hard to see right away when you're first beginning the development of practice, just how critically valuable it is, not for the moment when you're practicing, but for the performance, the game time, the moments when life just slams you down or slams those around you down.

Dane: [00:16]
There's a need for somebody to show up in those moments. And if you've not prepared yourself for that moment, you're not going to have much to offer. That's why we don't just say, let's do this to become strong and awake. We do this to become strong and awake for love's sake.

Dane: [00:30]
As humans we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path, to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

Dane: [00:54]
This is Strong and Awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

Mitch: [00:58]
Is taking care of yourself selfish? That is the question for today's episode. You can walk through any, uh, Barnes and Noble and find a giant self help section. But I often think so many people stop there, uh, self care, self focus, it's really kind of a, an anemic end.

Dane: [01:17]
Say more about anemic end, because I think you're right. But what do you mean?

Mitch: [01:22]
Oh, I just feel like so many of us stop with that we get better so we can get better, period.

Dane: [01:30]
Hmm. I wanna be the best version of myself.

Mitch: [01:32]
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's, and again, a noble, you know, thing to strive for

Dane: [01:39]
ish.

Mitch: [01:39]
But there's so much

Dane: [01:40]
noble ish

Mitch: [01:41]
more Yeah. Noble ish. Exactly. You wanna be a good person. You wanna be the best. Sure. It feels selfish. It feels incomplete to me. And that's where the anemic comes in.

Dane: [01:54]
Yeah, it's a little game.

Mitch: [01:55]
It's a little game.

Dane: [01:57]
Yeah. So I do think, like, it's funny. This is an unorthodox answer. I think taking care of yourself can absolutely Be selfish. It totally can be, but that's not the only option. It's, it's, there's actually multiple choice answers to that question, and they, multiple ones can work.

Dane: [02:15]
So it's interesting to consider like real situations that many of our members at MWA experience, so I'm picturing, people with certain personality types. They're nurturers, they're helpers. They, they're other oriented people. They may have even spent the majority of their.

Dane: [02:33]
developmental years and adult life serving other people. And it, it was maybe reinforced maybe in like their faith communities or in their, you know, family of origin or whatever reason. And, and in all of these efforts to take care of others, they've neglected themselves. We hear this all the time. And that might even be some motivation.

Dane: [02:55]
Like that's why they show up to the community. And it's great. It's a great starting point. Um, and at some point though, those folks, um, Even as they're taking care of themselves, usually they come up against them, their, their biases, the things that they practice their whole life. And they're just like, this doesn't feel right.

Dane: [03:16]
This feels wrong. How in the world with my small kids or in my aging parents or my responsibilities at work or my responsibilities to other people in my world, how in the world can I prioritize me? That's just wrong. And that's what's been internalized in a deep, you. Deep seated level. And again, there's nuance here, but we want to say to the person is just interested.

Dane: [03:39]
And we say this to people all the time. People come also also to the community and they say, I want to become the best version of myself. One of our standout friends who is in our community for, for years, still a close friend. Talk to him this week. I won't mention his name cause I don't want to indict him.

Dane: [03:54]
But, uh, he has this bias towards like, I just want to be the best version of myself. That's my life's mission. And to your point, it, it sounds, it sounds noble. But it kind of gets boring after a while. Live enough years of an optimized life. And there's not much interesting there. It's just a little existence.

Dane: [04:15]
So they're really two examples of very kind of polar ends. Where one person's coming in because they just want to be about themselves. The other's coming in and they're trying to get off of the addiction or whatever it is, habit, whatever, of, you know. Being so ruthlessly focused on the other, they actually want to prioritize themselves.

Dane: [04:33]
They both have unique problems. We think we solve both problems and the way we solve it is not so much their starting point, but where they move in the process of developing a practice.

Mitch: [04:45]
Yeah. I love that setting up too, because I think we all at times fall on different parts of that spectrum as well.

Mitch: [04:55]
It's not just, I am this kind of person. As you relate with maybe a relationship, a particular category or lane in your life, you might be showing up as one or the other. Uh, so I do think it's important to understand that it's not just you're either this person or this person, but you could be that person in different categories in your life.

Dane: [05:15]
A hundred percent. Yeah. You know, there's a running joke at M one that we need to start another group, which is spouses of people who do MWOD, uh, because it's like an Al Anon group or something. Like it's, it's just a support group for people who are trying to help people take care of develop a personal practice.

Dane: [05:33]
And it's understandable. I know I've experienced that with my own wife, uh, Tammy. Um, when I'm like stretching in the morning or night and she's just like, can we just turn the light off and go to bed? And, and I'm like, you know, don't doing my stuff. And, I appreciate it. I appreciate her frustration and how it, it comes at a cost.

Dane: [05:51]
So I don't want to pretend like there's no, there's no sacrifice that's happening for the individual doing the thing or the person around the person doing the thing. But one thing I've also noticed about my wife is in moments when she needs somebody to be strong and awake. Not just for me, but for her or for our kids or to have resilience when circumstances are very difficult.

Dane: [06:15]
Um, those are moments where she's pretty glad that I did my stretching in the morning and the evening and did my cold showers and held my breath. And, and it's hard to see right away when you're first beginning. The development of practice, just how critically valuable it is, not for the moment when you're practicing, but for the performance, the game time, the, the, the moments when life just slams you down or slams those around you down.

Dane: [06:42]
There's a need for somebody to show up in those moments. And if you've not prepared yourself for that moment, you're not going to have much to offer. And that's, that's what we do. That's why, that's why we don't just say, let's do this to become strong and awake. We do this to become strong and awake for love's sake.

Dane: [06:59]
It's not even for us. Although we benefit, it's really kind of fun, uh, but it's, it's for the sake of something that's bigger than.

Mitch: [07:08]
It's a secondary benefit that we actually get that, that growth and benefit, uh, or if anything, it's kind of cyclical, it kind of fuels itself, not fuels itself, but it gets that flywheel spinning.

Dane: [07:20]
Let's talk about both of those use cases again. So you had a person who came in because they wanted to be their best selves, right? And what's the reason this is a cool. solution for them, I think, is they, they get the benefit, right? They become their best selves.

Dane: [07:34]
It's, it's happening. Um, but, but they also pass through a threshold that a new world opens up a possibility and they realize like, oh my gosh, I'm not the center of the universe. I'm actually fringe, radically fringe, and my life's going to come to an end anyways. So do all this work for me to have my best self that's going to die.

Dane: [07:54]
Like, that's it. That's the point. Like they, they discover a whole new terrain of experience, which is super cool. And the other party who comes in, like all they're about is the other, and they, they feel anemic. They feel like they've never, um, they've neglected themselves and has come at a significant cost.

Dane: [08:14]
Those folks discover, wow, they can have. their cake and eat it too. Not actually their cake. We don't serve cake at MWOD, but, uh, they can, they can have the benefit of, and also their, their heart's desire to serve others. But in the serving, they have so much more to offer. They have, they have more resource, more substance, more resilience.

Dane: [08:38]
Like there's, there's just more. And that's the stuff that gets Me animated is both come froms get served in a way that is highly valuable and, um, we both get corrected. So if I'm just trying to get, be my highest and best self, that's really cool, I guess. Um, but I get corrected because I realized there's more to this world than me and, um, and my wife says, praise the Lord.

Dane: [09:07]
And, uh, in the other direction, how can you give yourself away if you have no self to give? So you get the benefit of the development. So there's course corrections, even while there's expansive experiences, um, all through this little effort, to build a personal practice through habits, routines, and ultimately building it up.

Mitch: [09:31]
And it's such an interesting paradox too, we're talking about them, you know, in the sense of a spectrum where there's this side and this side, uh, either are over prioritized just focused on yourself, practicing that you're over focused on others. But really, what we're talking about is like one in the same, like, if you're taking care of yourself best, you're taking care of others.

Mitch: [09:54]
And if you're taking care of yourself, others best, you're taking care of yourself. Like it's this paradox that you're It's a tension. It's so much easier to say that than it is to actually do in practice. I mean, I think about my experience as a parent, you know, I've got three young ones running around and there's so many opportunities for me to want to Be generous with them to be to be kind and compassionate to them and those are all noble means but the vice of compassion is permissiveness.

Mitch: [10:25]
And so it's that tension that you're managing, like, what might look. like unnecessary discipline or something that, you know, they perceive as, Oh, that's unkind or uncompassionate to me in this moment is actually true compassion for them as we kind of cultivate their character. Uh, and, Let them be good citizens in this world.

Mitch: [10:48]
So I think we often wrestle with that in ourselves too, like that compassion, permissiveness, focusing on myself, focusing on others. So like, how do we begin to suss this out or maybe identify where we're at in this spectrum?

Dane: [11:04]
Yeah. I mean, it does offer GPS like, um, mapping ability. Like you jump into building uncomfortable habits every single day.

Dane: [11:14]
And you're going to discover your motivation. You're going to discover what you're doing it unto really quickly. And it's not, um, good news or bad news. It's kind of not a moral thing. It's just like, you're going to, you're wired a certain kind of way. You have experiences that have set you up to be a certain kind of person.

Dane: [11:34]
And your come from is going to be this or that. And again, what I like is in this community, We have space for everybody. It's highly inclusive, um, for regardless of people's motivation to participate. And it's. It's not linear or binary either. It's not like it's done. You don't like come in and do the thing and you're complete.

Dane: [11:58]
It's like now you get into the thing and you might be complete on a given day, but good news is Lord willing, you have another day tomorrow and a day after that. And that's what is the process of building a practice. It's how you get good at anything. You know, if you apply it in a skill context, regardless of your motivation, if you want to be a writer, here's where I'll know if you're a writer.

Dane: [12:22]
You write every day. Uh, if you want to be a tennis player, um, regardless of your come from an ability, here's what I know is if you play tennis every day, you're going to become a tennis player. Um, and all of these things are consistent across all developmental pursuits. We just want to account for what are your motivations coming in and how can we customize the process?

Dane: [12:48]
The building of your practice, the creation of your practice in such a way that it really delivers for you personally. So everyone who starts at MWOD, they, there is a standardizing kind of foundation building round, right? Where you do, you just kind of, you've removed the cognitive load. You don't decide anything.

Dane: [13:07]
MWOD says, this is what we do. Do you want to do it with us? You jump in. Great. You just do the things. Then the real process begins, then you start coming up against yourself all the dynamics we've already talked about start surfacing and you start second guessing, like I'm tired. It's hard.

Dane: [13:23]
It's hard in a different kind of way than it was when people were just telling me what to do. Um, I have a lot of different voices out there. Asking for things from me. Um, like, aren't you done with that yet? You're still doing that thing. Um, and it's probably helpful. At least it's been helpful in my world to say out loud to people, like, I'm actually going to do this for the rest of my life.

Dane: [13:47]
Every day that you know me from now on, this is going to be part of who I am. And, and there's upside, I promise. Uh, cause it's actually not just for me. It would be wrong to say it's not about me. But it would be incomplete to say it's about me only. So, um, I'm actually doing it for me and for us, for the individual and for the collective.

Dane: [14:09]
That's that duality you're describing. So I think when we get into it like that, you let a couple of rounds go by and people start really, really getting it. But there's no getting around the difficulty at different stages and, and the dynamic you're describing, especially for those who are really wired for like, this is starting to feel selfish.

Dane: [14:29]
Um, that usually hits not in the first round. It usually hits in the second or third round. Uh, and that's at least in my experience. And that's when there's just this little threshold to get over. And if they get over it, they really start to see, wow, I'm showing up to things with more energy. Um, I actually have more to give.

Dane: [14:48]
I have more, there's more of me. Uh, and. It's ironic because you get that from doing hard things, but you become that kind of person that even the folks that you're serving look up to you and they go, how, how do you do it all? How do you, how do you take care of yourself the way that you do? I want to be like you someday.

Dane: [15:05]
And it starts to reinforce and you realize like this is what humans have been doing for hundreds and thousands of years. At least the ones that live well.

Mitch: [15:14]
Yeah, and I resonate with that. And of course, we're speaking to our particular context within the MWOD community, but this applies to anyone who has decided or committed to something and it's following through in cultivating those, those habits and that practice ultimately.

Mitch: [15:29]
I have found this too, in my kind of second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth rounds, that it does become that. You not only might start to hear that voice within yourself. Uh, I think for others, it's louder than maybe some of this is selfish, but for a lot of people, they're hearing that loud and clear from other people in their world.

Dane: [15:50]
Yes.

Mitch: [15:50]
I want to like, make sure we spend time talking about the stories that we tell ourselves or that we are being told. And of course there's different motivations. Some people might feel judged, you know, you, you're not drinking at the party, all of a sudden, why are you so judgmental? You're like, I'm just not drinking.

Mitch: [16:12]
I haven't said a thing. Uh, but I think some of it is out of that insecurity or something, but other people, spouses, like, there's real, tensions that we're managing and navigating as we kind of hold this, this not balance, but tension of building and cultivating our own practice, focusing on becoming strong and awake and this for love's sake piece.

Mitch: [16:37]
So what are we like, what are those kind of major voices? I suppose. And, uh, that we're telling ourselves that we're hearing from others. And if you were taking that in a different direction, I'd love to hear.

Dane: [16:47]
No, that I love the direction you're going. Cause I think that dynamic, let's let's stick with the, the, the example you gave, like, um, gosh, you should be such a good time at the party.

Dane: [16:56]
And now you're like a tea toddler, you know, or toddler, whatever they call those people. You're not drinking

Mitch: [17:00]
toddler too. Maybe, I don't know. Yeah,

Dane: [17:02]
whatever.

Dane: [17:03]
Like you're, you're

Dane: [17:03]
not drinking what's going on. And, and you're kind of bringing the mood down. Okay. And I, I, in my, my assessment of that dynamic is what's happening is it's a reveal

Dane: [17:13]
and it, it's not the same forever, like at the beginning, it's disruptive, right?

Dane: [17:18]
So you have a cultural norm in a context like a party where everyone does these kinds of things and you are, you are participating in that and now all of a sudden you're not. And people are saying, well, what does that mean? They're not actually saying, what does that mean for you? Why are you ruining it?

Dane: [17:33]
What they're actually saying is, why are you revealing to me that I'm participating in this? And I'm not sure this is highest and best for me, but I know I really like it. So stop messing with my system. Um, and I think that reveal is, it can feel dangerous. It can feel scary. Like, gosh, what, you know, what's the upset.

Dane: [17:53]
But I also have witnessed and experienced in my own life.

Dane: [17:56]
Just last night I experienced this. I was playing Settlers of Catan with a couple of buddies and they were drinking scotch and I wasn't. And I didn't say anything about their scotch drinking. I had nothing to say. They know what I do and who I am, what I'm about.

Dane: [18:09]
Well, actually there was four of us playing and one of them wasn't drinking scotch, who traditionally drinks scotch. And part of me went, I don't want to be narcissistic here, but I think I'm influencing this person positively. Because I actually think I created an opening for him not to.

Dane: [18:25]
actually engage. Uh, I gave him permission and, and I didn't say anything. I didn't, I just did it. You know, I just showed up and now it's like, that's an, that's available to me. And we've all been around folks who consistently go to parties and they drink a lot. And at some point they kind of go like, this is, I don't feel good.

Dane: [18:44]
This is not, my body's not happy with it, but they still will get a drink because this is what we do.

Dane: [18:48]
So you do this long enough and all of a sudden you actually become an opening for others, as well as you're just perpetuating your own, the practice that you believe is going to yield highest and best in your life.

Dane: [18:59]
Um, and put you in a position so that if someone needs a drive. You're available. Um, so I, I think these dynamics, they can feel uncomfortable. And my experience is when we can hold into this, that discomfort for socially and get curious with it. Lighthearted. You don't have to be, make it a big heavy. You don't have to get moralistic about it.

Dane: [19:24]
It's just, well, tell me more. Like, what is it about me not drinking that affects you? Um, and as you get curious, I think you'll discover a lot also as you persist with it, what you'll see is more opportunities open up for others to participate the way they want to. You're actually, you're being creative. You're saying, like, in this context, I can do a lot of things.

Dane: [19:45]
Those are one thing. This is another. And this other thing actually yields the very things that you all compliment me about. Because what you compliment me about discipline, um, being in shape at my age, uh, you know, whatever, uh, that's not available. If, if what I, my practice is drinking scotch when I'm playing Catan.

Dane: [20:10]
Um, and I'm not judging drinking scotch when you play Catan. What I'm saying is if the practice we're all, we all have a practice. We all are doing something that's yielding what we're and are we happy with what we're getting? Is this, is this as good as it gets? Um, I, I say this quote over and over and over again, man finds a level of despair.

Dane: [20:30]
He can tolerate and he calls it happiness. Soren Kierkegaard. And I, the reason I say it is I want to remind myself over and over again, where am I settling? Where am I, um, disqualifying myself from being the kind of person that can show up for the people in my life that, that I've committed to. And that's, that's worthy.

Dane: [20:52]
That's a worthy exercise. But most people are asleep. They don't think to ask the question or. They're not orienting. They're not creating a life where they can participate that way. And I'm interested in doing that. And you are. And our whole community is. Like, doing it together is a lot more fun than doing it solo.

Mitch: [21:11]
Yeah, save the settling for Catan. Not in life.

Mitch: [21:14]
I suppose I'm I'm really interested in the tensions that one experiences when they are starting to change, when they are going down this path of becoming and the people around them are starting to realize, Oh, this isn't that challenge that I was, that they, as a side, you know, on the sidelines or participant, they're, they're, they're thinking, okay, this is going to be done in 90 days or whenever this thing is done, then it'll be back to normal.

Mitch: [21:43]
I'm interested in that moment or. That reveal that starts to happen of, oh, this isn't just a phase or a fad or a challenge. Like this is part of like who they're becoming. And you touched on this is a lot of times that change in general, especially for certain personality types is really, really hard and they resist that. And that can be often really hard to navigate, especially as someone that is going through that change. And maybe someone that is, has a propensity to being overly others focused and maybe people pleasing. Like it can be easy to be like, okay, yeah, it was just a challenge. Like I'm bowing out.

Mitch: [22:26]
Uh, my practice is goes beyond just being flexible. It's I can drop it. whenever it inconveniences anyone else. Uh, so one, I think, you know, it might be helpful to talk through and what that conversation might look like. Uh, but beyond that, like, how do we navigate that like internal wrestling and conversation that we're having with ourselves as we're approaching people, maybe beyond just your game night friends and like a spouse or someone who's like very intimately involved in, in your day to day life.

Dane: [23:00]
When someone becomes someone new. It's, it's just going to be disruptive. And I, I, I don't want, I've said this kind of before, but I want to kind of put a point on it. like A lot of people say they want change, they're seeking change. They want to, you know, they want to lose weight. They want to gain muscle. They want to have better habits, whatever it is. And I think what's understated in that is if you're successful, you're going to have an impact on others.

Dane: [23:29]
In ways that go beyond just the metric of weight loss or whatever the thing is that happened and, and what you're describing is really just accounting for that. How do you account for it? Because other people didn't sign up for this social change. You signed up for it and now you're doing it and now it's impacting them.

Dane: [23:46]
So I do think there's appropriately a lot of space that should be created to hear how your practice is impacting someone else. And I could see seasons where, like, if all of a sudden Tammy got cancer and she was going into, um, like a season of chemo, and it was my job to pick up a whole bunch of new things, I wouldn't give up my practice.

Dane: [24:13]
I really wouldn't. But I might ratchet it down. I might be really measured in the things that I'm committing to. In that season, I would also be transparent about it in our community and tell folks, these are the circumstances. Can you guys, I, I've real practices buoy me in the storms of life. I don't want to give up my practice, but I also don't want to be escaping the reality that I'm in with my wife by running away to hide at the gym or whatever I'm doing.

Dane: [24:43]
And people do that all the time. Right. And so I'm not, so this is where we got to, we got to embrace reality and reality includes those that we. We're doing life with, and I think accounting for their experience is appropriate. But what you also heard in what I just said was you don't give up your practice.

Dane: [25:00]
You don't, the practice becomes, it is the context of the container by which you develop resource. You grow things that you can actually use to serve others. And back to the original conversation, we do, we're doing all of this to transcend our little lives to make a bigger impact. So my practice is only really as useful as it serves.

Dane: [25:20]
My wife as it serves my kids as it serves my community as it serves my neighbors as it serves people. I don't even know. Um am I less of a jerk in life because I have a practice This is the for love's sake. This is what we keep talking about over and over again and Along the way because it's disruptive.

Dane: [25:40]
It's just going to feel different. It's going to feel weird to those around us. And we should create space to hear that out and also trust that in time, they're not going to want us to give up our practice either, but they do like it when we're flexible and in certain situations, they need us to be. And this is where I think it gets really dynamic and really, really cool.

Dane: [26:03]
Um, I think of, uh, you know, the beginning of MWOD and, um, me and my buddy Tim and Tim actually did get cancer and he ended up dying a year later. And his practice looked so radically different. Um, in some ways it ratcheted up at levels I'd never seen before. Um, and in others, he just, you know, he wasn't going to the gym very often.

Dane: [26:26]
Uh, and although he did try to. Work out in his garage a lot and it was really funny. Uh, but the, uh, mainly he did it for social media and to poke fun. Uh, but like in those efforts, like I just, I, I saw him, I saw him show up in life for Jess and his boys. He was, he was just super alive. And it wasn't about just him.

Dane: [26:50]
Some of it was, but it was instrumental as well. And, it looked very different. Um, so this is where just doing what we tell you to do is not developing a practice. That's the start of developing a practice. And then in time, this is the reason why we spend so much energy in our community to help people own their practice with agency, where they're, they're telling themselves, their future self is telling their present self. Would you do these things so that you can become the kind of person that I want you to become? And when you do that, that's when the opening happens. But I, I, to your point, I think the, the question of, of the others in our lives and the impact that it has, creating space for that conversation so you're conscious to it, and that you're adaptable without giving up your practice is the key.

Mitch: [27:35]
Yeah, it's and it's so dynamic. It takes a lot of character and nuance and patience and course correcting to navigate these conversations and and these deep conversations. kind of tensions, uh, and, and not just for an external kind of third party, but for within yourself, you know, as you were talking about as whirlwinds come, you know, the example of the hypothetical of if a spouse got cancer, um, maybe you would ratchet down or ratchet up in certain categories.

Mitch: [28:04]
And I have found that as someone that is a recovering perfectionist, as someone who up till now has, has only compromised when I can justify it. I find that I have challenge with navigating like, how low do I put that threshold before I say, Oh, okay, I got a ratchet down or I got to give this up. Like what?

Mitch: [28:28]
Like, obviously it's a nuanced answer and we can unpack this at a future episode, but I want to just acknowledge that that tension exists. And that's if we're trying to live in this kind of a way where we're like pushing, living outside of our comfort zone, kind of growing in our capacity, like we'll often find ourselves on that fringe, like having those moments.

Mitch: [28:50]
Uh, so like, how do we begin to kind of navigate those and begin to kind of get some anchors and handholds navigating that tension within ourselves?

Dane: [29:00]
Yeah. I'm really glad you're asking this question. I think when you're under duress, you're not in a great position to make a decision. Okay. So let's just acknowledge that upfront and we all know this, right?

Dane: [29:11]
I don't think anyone's going to dispute that. You know, when you're stressed out, don't make a big purchase, uh, if you can avoid it, uh, you know, that kind of thing.

Dane: [29:19]
And, and if you're in the middle of a committed practice and all of a sudden a storm hits you, um, I don't think you're probably the best position to exclusively decide what to do next.

Dane: [29:30]
You might think you are, but this is where community becomes very, very helpful. Uh, an empathetic, compassionate, understanding community who also understands what you're up to, that you're interested in growing even in the midst of storms. So if that's you, I would recommend you having your sense of, gosh, I want to adjust my practice this way.

Dane: [29:51]
And you bring it to other people who aren't under duress. Like you are asked for their input, ask for their questions. And if they're the kinds of people like who hang out at MWOD, they won't tell you what to do. They'll ask you more questions. They'll help you get to a sense of. a sober state where you're going to be in a far stronger position to choose what's right and good for the moment you're in, especially if you're a little bit disoriented.

Dane: [30:14]
And I have experienced the benefit of that over and over and over again. And I've had people intervene and say, uh, I don't know if that's the right thing for you right now. And, and, and it's helpful. It just gets me grounded, you know, and this is, again, when you're doing it as a solo act, it's very difficult To navigate the moment, the precise moments you're describing, Mitch.

Dane: [30:37]
And, and this is why you want to have established those relationships and have them in play in advance of the moment. Cause if you hit that moment and now you're gurning around looking for friends to try to understand context, I have a practice I'm doing, it's like, you're asking a lot of yourself and the others, and I don't think you're going to get what you're really looking for in contrast.

Dane: [30:57]
If you now not under a storm, not under duress, methodically start building a thing around other people, developing the rapport, feeling known, you know, them, you trust them, they trust you, you get to that moment that is inevitable and radically predictable. It's coming for all of us. You'll have those relationships in place and they will be your allies in deciding the ratchet up and down and the practice that will ultimately yield the fruit that will continue to help you to grow.

Dane: [31:27]
so that you can serve the other in those moments.

Mitch: [31:31]
Yeah. And, and this does not say, this is not saying that you yourself are not the primary agent still that you're the one carrying out this practice. You're the one doing these things yet. It's such a resource not only to do this. on behalf of others, but you also get the benefit as you're linked up with these people.

Mitch: [31:49]
You know, I think of like mountaineers or something, you're clipped in with someone. It's a benefit to them and a benefit to you. Uh, you know, and there's, there's vulnerability and risk there on both sides. Um, but if you're trying to go it alone, man, is it so unnecessarily hard and difficult, not the good kind of challenge and difficult.

Mitch: [32:08]
Yeah. Oh, golly.

Dane: [32:10]
Like once in a while, there's one of those free solo dudes, but they're once in a generation. And and I don't even know if I want to be that guy. Like

Mitch: [32:21]
I mean, yeah, I mean, Alex Honnold, I get the butterflies just watching the documentary, let alone being on the face.

Dane: [32:27]
Like

Dane: [32:27]
forget the show or imagine his actual life or his wife or whatever.

Dane: [32:31]
But I do think he's a unique guy. And I will say this quick note and nod to him. The dude has a practice and he's not. He's not doing that work naively. Um, and, uh, and the question becomes, who do you want to become? Who do you want to become? Who do you want to be? And if you're not putting in some process by which you're going to become that person, you won't become that person.

Dane: [32:59]
You will not drift your way into excellence. It's just not available. But if you do want that in the midst of real life, In real storms, in real temptations to quit on yourself, to cut yourself short, to choose the easy path. You want to choose the good way that'll get you the thing that you actually want.

Dane: [33:22]
Tell me another pattern to get there. I don't know it. I don't know. Besides voluntary discomfort in community, I don't know it.

Mitch: [33:30]
Me either.

Dane: [33:32]
I guess we're stuck with each other, bro.

Mitch: [33:36]
Well, thank you for this conversation. If, if you who are watching this or listening to this want to learn more about how we practice voluntary discomfort together and a lot of these things that we've talked about today, check out the show notes or below this video if you're watching this for more information.

Mitch: [33:51]
And thanks, Dane. Really appreciate it.

Dane: [33:53]
Yeah, you too, mitch.

Dane: [33:54]
Men & women of discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone but keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that or if you want to find out for yourself you can find us at mwod.io the information and material that we're sharing both of this podcast or anything connected to men or women of discomfort or flying s incorporated it's all for general information purposes Only you should not rely on this material or information on this podcast as a basis for making any kind of decision.

Dane: [34:19]
We do our best to keep everything up to date and correct, and we do a lot of due diligence, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that you're in sync with your own medical professionals that you wouldn't see what we're offering here as somehow a warranty or representation in any kind expressed or implied about this being complete, accurate, reliable, suitable, or comprehensive in any kind of way.

Dane: [34:33]
It's critical you own your agency, which is at the heart of everything we do at Men Women Of Discomfort, we invite you to take the input that we're offering and consider it for yourself. And if it's helpful, please do take advantage of it. But if you do, it's you who is taking the opportunity and we're assuming that you've done your due diligence with it.

Dane: [34:45]
Thanks.