"My Truth" & Reality | Ep. 4

Dane: [00:00]
At Men and women of discomfort wear shame free zone. I'm not interested in shame. We're interested in challenging and calling up and inviting more from the person. More honesty. More humility. More freedom. I think there's massive potency, but none of it happens if you're not honest. None of it happens if you're not courageous. Because we not only suffer together, but we're suffering for a particular purpose.

Dane: [00:26]
We're kind of at arms together, moving towards the kinds of people that we all know in our guts. We want to be. If only we'd find the courage and the honesty to move in that direction. As humans, we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience. The payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver.

Dane: [00:49]
Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort. This is strong and awake. I'm Dane Sanders.
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Mitch: [01:06]
Hey, Dane.

Dane: [01:07]
Hey, Mitch.

Mitch: [01:10]
How've you been?

Dane: [01:10]
I'm well. Man, I'm really well.

Mitch: [01:13]
The topic at hand is truth. Honesty. My truth. Your truth. Whose truth? You know, there's going to be lots of potential triggering phrases.

Dane: [01:26]
It's so funny. I was reminded recently, you know, the great Pontius Pilate when he was condemning Jesus of Nazareth. You know the question he asked back then, thousands of years ago. What is truth? And before he, you know, trying to figure out whether it's going to Jesus was going to go die or the other guy. And it's profound, right?

Dane: [01:46]
Like, what a question. What is truth? As if I could ever really access it. You know, we have so many. We live in an era where, you know, significant, smart people actually are entertaining the possibility that we're not even living in, in a sense of reality. And it's all just what do they call it, a.

Mitch: [02:03]
Simulation.

Dane: [02:04]
A simulation. Right. And, you know, even that idea of a simulation, that's not a new idea that's been around for thousands of years. If you read some of the ancients, they've they've talked about these kind of ideas. But I think at the end of the day, there is something that is. So even if it is a simulation that we're in the midst of, then the simulation is the thing that is.

Dane: [02:24]
So there's so many ways to talk about it. The story I make up about reality is, you know, or my map of real. I like the map metaphor. This is taught to me by one of my mentors that the map of reality. It's almost like a painting. There's that old French painter son, Pete. This is not a pipe, and it's a picture of a pipe, an illustrated pipe.

Mitch: [02:45]
Oh.

Dane: [02:45]
Yeah. And the idea is that, of course, it's not a pipe. It's a picture of a pipe. But how can someone say it's not a pipe? Because it's clearly a pipe. But it's not a pipe. And I think a painting of a pipe is different than a pipe. Just like another kind of philosophical kind of inquiry. There's this essay I, I read about.

Dane: [03:04]
I read called What It's Like to Be a Bat, and the article which basically made the case for if you Could Know every species, you were the world's expert at everything there is to know about bats and, you know, kind and type and genus and, you know, all the different pieces and details and, you know, every hair on every body, all the things.

Dane: [03:26]
Here's the one thing you'd never know what it's like to be a bat. And what do we do with this, this kind of distinction and, and how do we relate with it. And I my own biases. On the one hand it can be very discouraging. Like how are we ever going to get to reality? And the good news is no realities.

Dane: [03:44]
We get to plumb the depths of our inquiry around reality, the whole of our lives and beyond, hopefully. But I, I would argue that having a humble disposition about what we think we know is probably a good resource. Like, for example, we were talking about this before we started the conversation today. This phrase, which is very common in our culture these days, is share your truth.

Dane: [04:05]
What is my truth? And you see this. You know, people in popular culture, professional athletes. I hear it a lot, in particular in other places, when they're talking about mental health, for example, they'll say, you know, I'm just sharing my truth about my experience. I get that at first when I heard that, I got really irritated and I thought, like, are you saying there is no truth when you're saying when you're making it so subjective and yet I become more sympathetic to it because it's really just a declaration of like, this is my best take on truth.

Dane: [04:33]
This is my, my, my, my vantage point, my map of reality. And in the best cases, people who say that mean I'm open to being wrong. There's more for me to learn. I have a lot of access points. If I would be courageous enough to go look at it. Some people, of course, don't mean that. They mean my truth.

Dane: [04:54]
And everyone has their own truth and there's no real thing as truth, and therefore we're just going to have a big fight about who's stronger, faster, has a higher status. And that truth is going to trump the day. That's kind of a boring conversation to me. But if we can still hold on to the idea that reality is and we can have vantage points on it and we can have a humble disposition toward it, we have an incredible opportunity to get curious and find out more if we're willing to be honest.

Dane: [05:24]
And that is.

Mitch: [05:26]
So.

Dane: [05:27]
Difficult to do because while we're trying to figure out what is so, we're also living in a world where it feels like we're competing for status and we want to look good and feel right and not be shamed or feel badly. And these conflicting motivations and incentives are at play constantly. And in the middle of that, we're we're trying to figure out, gosh, if I if I'm not willing to be honest to say what I don't know, or stopped short of claiming that I know more than I do, gosh, we get ourselves into trouble.

Dane: [05:56]
We set the table in such a way that we limit our learning. and I know I'm guilty that have been my, my whole life. And like when I speak in hyperbole or I, I make claims to things like someone says, oh, have you read such and such? Like even a moment ago when I said, I read that article, what it's like to be a bat, I, I remember I was assigned that article, I wonder, did I actually read it or did it read a synopsis of it?

Dane: [06:22]
Or like, I don't know the truth, I know all those answers. Even when I think back like it was a grad school. It's kind of a crazy time. I probably skimmed it, and it's just so tempting to overstate, and I, I have found the more I'm willing to understate, or at least state things plainly and get curious, a lot of opportunity opens up.

Dane: [06:43]
Can you relate to any of this much?

Mitch: [06:46]
Can I ever? I think there are so many different moments that kind of spoke to me, or in a less will just turn, a phrase just stood out to me and for me. I've been on my own journey of being more intellectually honest with myself and doing that without holding judgment. I think oftentimes we might blame culture or Disney or whatever you want to blame for our coddling culture, our pursuit of comfort.

Mitch: [07:20]
And one of those kind of subversive things is a lack of honesty with ourselves, because we're afraid of that judgment that comes with it, or the weight that comes with truth or honesty. And I think I've kind of succumbed to that, that, that lie or I believe that lie and have been so used to that pattern of thinking that in what I think is less malicious but more of self-preservation, have avoided being honest with myself or with others, sometimes subconsciously or unbeknownst to me.

Mitch: [07:57]
Yeah. which is why I think one acknowledging that this is a map that this is something that can get more detailed with greater exploration and, discovery and study, but also with practice. You can't make a more detailed map without raising the sails and getting out there. And I think one thing that I've been navigating to keep using this map metaphor is how do I how do I do those things without with feeling guilt?

Mitch: [08:34]
Maybe because, like you said, Dane in the past, in conversations, the truth is like, yes, you, you might have missed the mark or you, you are guilty. but to fill that guilt without shame and without the self-loathing or the hiding or the retreating that often comes, with that. So as part of what we do here in men and Women of discomfort is we get to hold account for what we have committed to as a part of this community and committed to for ourselves.

Dane: [09:08]
And recently stuck with that. I'm sorry. Yeah, yeah. Inspire me a little bit. So like, because what I'm hearing there's this is tension, right? So I'm hearing you say, how do we acknowledge where we've missed the mark. And if you want to call it guilt, you want to call I don't care what you call it. You missed the mark.

Dane: [09:24]
You wanted this and you didn't do this. You did this, okay? And or you did that. And there is a desire to avoid a certain kind of feeling, and let's call it shame or bad, and I, I'm not a psychologist. I don't want to. I want to pretend to be. Although I've spent a lot of time with psychologists and I, I don't I don't think you go for how can I not feel that feeling?

Dane: [09:49]
Because that's honestly what sends a lot of people, at least myself, in a tailspin. It's like I'm really willing to do whatever it takes to not feel that feeling. That's what I mean. And I think that perpetuates the running away. The hiding, the wishing it would just go away. No, no, I didn't do it. I didn't do it.

Dane: [10:05]
I didn't do it. Oh no, you did it, you know, and it's it's so difficult. It's so difficult for every human on this planet because we all miss the mark. Like all of us. There's no one who doesn't. And even our heroes like most every hero we have, they were heroes because at some point they were just an utter.

Dane: [10:26]
They've missed the mark so badly. I think of Kobe Bryant as someone who I just, I had such esteem for as an athlete, the late, great Kobe Bryant, Kobe Bryant, who, you know, inspired millions and continues to, you know, he was in Newport Beach. I was in Newport Beach. Our daughters were in a play together at one point, like, they're my son.

Dane: [10:45]
And I had these amazing, kind of, you know, magic moments. We went to the NBA All-Star Game in Los Angeles when he won the MVP one year, and we both would wear Lakers jerseys, and it was just this amazing kind of experience. And it's, you know, it's public knowledge. He also had some massive moral failures, you know, and I think one of the things that buoyed him was his performance on the court.

Dane: [11:08]
People just kind of forgave the other part. And if he hadn't performed on the court, well, what would have happened, you know, in those kinds of cases? And my gosh, you get so complex so quickly. So my point is simply it's not to pick on Kobe. I'll pick on me like I my moral failures left and right. If you actually got into the mix.

Dane: [11:26]
And I know every single person who's listening or a part of this conversation right now, if they're honest with themselves, we've all missed the mark so badly. And the question becomes, what do you do with that? And one thing I'll point to, and it's a nod for you and I both and several, you know, gazillion people around the planet.

Dane: [11:46]
If you if you have a faith tradition that accounts for the human condition, that allows for, to my knowledge, Christianity's particularly helpful in this regard around grace, you know that's a very helpful resource to navigate these kinds of things. But even the Christian friends that I have, myself included, who have access to grace, don't lay claim to it right when you need it.

Dane: [12:10]
Because if we had if we fully lived in the reality of our great of the grace that we have available to us, shame would. It just wouldn't show up because it's been taken care of. Neither would fear we'd be relaxed in our in our kind of disposition. And I think on some level, really, our discipline, even at men and women, the discomfort, whether or not people have a faith tradition who are participating, I see them actually moving in the direction of experiencing grace where shame free zone.

Dane: [12:36]
We don't. We're not interested in shaming, even while we're interested in challenging and calling up and inviting more from the person. More honesty, more humility, more freedom from agency because they're willing and able to raise their hand and move forward incrementally once, one day at a time. I think there's massive potency, but none of it happens if you're not honest.

Dane: [13:01]
None of it happens if you're not courageous. It's why people who I get to do men and women of discomfort with are practically my best friends because we not only suffer together, but we're suffering for a particular purpose. We're, we're we're kind of at arms together, moving towards the kinds of people that we all know in our guts.

Dane: [13:23]
We want to be. If only we'd find the courage and the honesty to move in that direction. And that's what I see you doing as my friend Mitch. I see that's why I see our whole community when we're at our best, and also why it often takes some time. There's, you know, at the beginning of the journey with men and women of discomfort.

Dane: [13:42]
It's really about often really thin things, like people want to get in shape or they want to look good in the mirror when they get out of the shower or they want to, you know, whatever. Remember what it felt like to be an athlete when they were in their 20s or whatever their thing is? And I'll just say, I want all of those.

Dane: [13:59]
That's my own personal motivation. But, you know, having done this a handful of times, more than a handful of times, what I've every single round, I just I can't plumb the depths of, I'm getting closer to reality. I'm more humbled in the process, but I'm also more able. I'm stronger and more awake. I'm more able to love others.

Dane: [14:18]
I have a greater capacity to not feel shame at, to experience God's grace, to live in to the fullness of who I was meant to become and actually become it. And that's the part that I just go, oh my gosh, like super. Practically, it sounds kind of silly, but today I was driving to CrossFit and we have some construction right by our house, and I pulled it out of our neighborhood.

Dane: [14:39]
I knew the construction was there. I was running late, totally on me. And we live in a small town where you can get away with stuff in traffic. And I looked to my right and there was this, like, mile long line of people who'd been waiting in line for it to go because it was a one way in both directions, and I literally just pulled away.

Dane: [14:55]
I've done this several times this week. I follow you in front of everybody else. One construction guy is yelling at me, and I come down to this other guy and there are literally like, there's electrical lines going where I'm supposed to drive, and this guy comes running over and he's really upset. And, and I kept my window up and I had my sunglasses on, like playing all the games.

Dane: [15:14]
Right, that are human to play because I had the power. And somewhere in the in the conversation, that transaction happened where I realized how every how arrogant of me that I thought I am this privilege, that I should be able to do whatever the hell I want and drive where I want and do what I thing and in the face of obvious missing it.

Dane: [15:35]
Like where I was cheating because I started talking to the window and I said to the guy like you guys are really disorganized up there. Like, if your pylons were a different kind of set up or whatever, and he's saying the words, I was like, I am a wire, I am, I am a deceiver. I am not, I am missing the mark in real time.

Dane: [15:51]
And I claim to be the leader of men and women of discomfort. Are you kidding me? I can't live in the discomfort of what I'm in the middle of, and somewhere in the middle of the conversation, as my words are coming out, this guy was so pissed. Finally, I roll down the window and I actually said the pylon thing out loud and he said, no, that's not true.

Dane: [16:07]
The pylons are set up because it's a we have to have a gate for the people coming up to come up and the people to go down to go down. There's no way to not do that. And I literally said, you're totally right. I am totally wrong. You are totally right. Will you please forgive me? And here's the amazing part.

Dane: [16:24]
This guy instantly shifted. Like I'm confident that I could have just been an ass. Gotten through the intersection, kept on going, felt entitled, moved on, and my map of reality was like, I'm special and I'm awesome and I get to do whatever the hell I want. And I would have ruined his day, and it could have had a ripple effect where that guy could have gone on and been a jerk to his wife or his kids.

Dane: [16:48]
And it's just it was one last straw. On a day where he's never kind of appreciated for the work he's doing or whatever. And it was so micro and it and I was the one that was guilty, 100% guilty, and all I needed to do was to see it and to stop it and to say it honestly, I wasn't I didn't feel shame.

Dane: [17:10]
I just felt like that's wrong. What's right is he's right. You're right, I'm wrong. And he just relaxed and he's like, no problem, dude, I'm good. We're great. And off he went. And the story I make up about him is I didn't ruin his day. I didn't set in motion a ripple effect that we do this all the time as humans constantly.

Dane: [17:33]
But it's so unnecessary, so unnecessary. If only we can get in tune with reality, which is, sometimes humbling, sometimes humiliating. But it's always redeemable. And I want to be the kind of guy who's willing to do that quicker. How can I how fast can I get off of my arrogance and on to a path of, of living well, of I feel better, he feels better, you know, and we're all good.

Dane: [17:59]
But it could have been a nightmare. And I think oftentimes if we could just have 1% less of those moments happen where we can recover quickly. It's amazing, I think how much our world would get better. And this is very practical. This isn't like woo idealistic stuff. This is like, no, this is how people get triggered, triggered, triggered, trigger triggered.

Dane: [18:18]
And really bad things happen downstream.

Mitch: [18:22]
Yeah. Yeah. And it's so easy to see how that affects us as we're navigating life with the map that we've drawn. That's right. But when we're leading others with that map or bumping up against others with that same map, it can really create some, some serious kind of collateral damage, like you said, or positive change. That's right.

Mitch: [18:43]
I was listening to I think it was Simon Sinek, either a podcast or reading. I'm not sure how I consume this, but it's and he was talking about kind of company culture and values specifically. And he said so often he sees companies, they say, you know, we value honesty and we value x, y, z. And he's like, those aren't values.

Mitch: [19:07]
Those are nouns. Like, where's the verb? Where's the action in that? And he said, you know, instead of saying we value honesty, he said, you should instead just switch that out for tell the truth. That's it. Like there's a certain generative aspect and action associated with these values. And I that's what I love about this conversation and what we're doing it men and women of discomfort.

Mitch: [19:31]
And the story you just told is that sure you value honestly, I'm sure you would say that. But like you spoke the truth, you told the truth in that moment. And not only does that cultivate a truth honesty in that moment, but it also pulls in all of these other things. Humility. And I would argue that not only does it cultivate it, but, in its best form, it's it's planted alongside all of those things, and that's where it can thrive.

Mitch: [19:59]
So what can what action can we take when okay, we value honestly, I'm sure everyone listening or watching this would say that they value honesty. Well, where do we start? What do we what can we do in the small moments in traffic, in conversations with ourselves, as we're becoming more aware of those stories that we're telling ourselves?

Dane: [20:19]
Yeah, I love that question. And I have found, like, whoever the most intimate relationship is in your life, this is where it's going to, I think, shop more. Most often the gold is in the upset, so we have some upset with the person who's most connected to you in your world or, you know, the people who are in close proximity.

Dane: [20:37]
Oh, my best friends I've had the most conflict with. And it's not it's not by surprise. It's because we've recovered from those upsets. And the question becomes, how do we recover? How do we get closer to reality? Not just my truth. And I can't think of a single instance where when I lead with an upset happens. We, you know, person, that person B, there's an upset.

Dane: [20:59]
And I'm personally and I say to person B you're the problem. You messed up. You like I, I'm trying to think of any situation where that has bore fruit. In contrast, maybe there maybe there was or something where person B was like totally indicted or whatever. But almost every time I'm an active collaborator in the upset, and if I can get curious around my contribution to the upset, that's that part of my truth that I want to pay attention to.

Dane: [21:30]
That's the gold. And if I can lead with my own individual contribution to an upset, that's the truth. I want to put on display. And if I can become like, that's my habit, that's my default, that's my natural response to things. That is what opens up the most possibility in the relationship. And bigger picture. It opens up more access to reality.

Dane: [21:55]
Reality is what we're going for. Reality is what we want to embrace and participate with. But reality is that thing that if we don't lead with humility, we don't lead with curiosity. Neutrality thinking through our contribution to an upset, it's very, very difficult. And of course, this is really hard to do when you've been offended when someone actually has done something really awful to you.

Dane: [22:17]
And I don't want to minimize those realities I'm not speaking to if you are victimized, but even if you were victimized, the path out of that is to give up your victim status. The path out of that is to go. What do I do now that's already happened? I'm not taking responsibility for being victimized. I'm taking responsibility for my situation.

Dane: [22:36]
On the other side of that and saying, am I contributing to extending that even further? Or am I contributing to finding my way to a better possibility, to something more? And in most cases, people who resist that in my experience, they resist it because they simply aren't interested in learning more about reality. They're so committed to their perceptions as they're showing up for themselves, the role they're playing in the in the upset that maybe wanting to feel superior or wanting to win.

Dane: [23:05]
You can't win in relationships. You perpetuate. You want the relationship to extend. You mentioned Simon Sinek. This is the infinite game he speaks so much of. And that's the trick. If there is something else I want, I could discover what I want to know about it. That's the first step. And the second is, well, the way to know about it is to get curious around your contribution to the breakdown.

Dane: [23:27]
And if I if I can faithfully pursue that, I can find my way. And going back to that first conversation around grace, like maybe even get to a place where you might be the giver of grace, the person who can actually hear your partner, the person that you're connecting to most, the most intimate person in your whole world, in a whole new light, break something open for them that's powerful, but it's not for the faint of heart.

Dane: [23:53]
You got to be awake to do that. You got to be strong, to go humble and you actually have to do that not for your sake, but for love sake, for the person who's in front of you. So a lot, lot to ask here. And I don't think this happens on the spot. I think this happens because you practice.

Dane: [24:08]
And if you're not practicing these things, how in the world can you expect to ever be able to be that kind of person? And I think that's what we do. We practice becoming those kinds of people. And it's odd. We do it through funny mechanisms to learn, like learning how to do hard things translates to these more actually weightier things, these relationships that we say are the most important things in our lives.

Mitch: [24:35]
Yeah. I love that. You know, to use to extend the metaphor, it almost seems like what you just described is like a compass to help in those moments. Navigate. Like am I trying to take the high horse? Am I stepping onto the soapbox or my humbling myself and actually listening? That's so, so helpful.

Dane: [24:54]
We lie to ourselves, right? Like I don't want to look bad in front of this guy who I clearly just offended and did the wrong thing in front of. So I want to maintain that appearance and I can get locked into a role. I know people who are hearing my voice right now, they can relate to this where you know you're in a conversation, you're in a fight, and you almost have an out-of-body experience where you step away from yourself and you're like, that's not true.

Dane: [25:15]
Like, why are you saying those things? And yet you're so caught in your role and you're like a method actor, you can't get out of it, and you stay committed to the role, and all that's required is the courage to, like, stop. Like the video stop. Just tell the truth, slow down, be honest. And even as I'm saying this, I have a hunch there might be some people who are listening who are going like, ooh, I had one of those conversations this morning and I might have a gold mine if I was willing to go there.

Dane: [25:48]
And I'd encourage you to try. I'd encourage you to give it a shot, see what at the level you can bear, go for that, even if it's minimal. Go for that and see if you can't open something up, or if you want to learn how to do this in the whole of your life all the time. Go to my dad.

Dane: [26:04]
I go and sign up. Go to apply.

Mitch: [26:07]
It's probably not for you.

Dane: [26:08]
It's great, but I try to online as well.

Mitch: [26:11]
I think that's that's an appropriate ending. But I do want to spend just one minute digging into this because I do think, yes, people hopefully at the end of this conversation at least have more evidence for the importance of honesty in their own lives or more tools to see when that is and isn't happening in their lives. but for those that don't, have a partner, for those of us, for, I mean, I think to my conversation that I often have with my kids this recurring conversation, they're upset, they're crying, what have you.

Mitch: [26:43]
And it's that out-of-body moment, but I'm the person that's outside of their body, and I'm asking why? Why are you upset? And they can't articulate it anymore. They've they've become so separated from that moment. But for those that don't have those little mirrors back to themselves of you know, our own struggles, our own dishonesty, our own sin, if you want to use that, what are some other ways that we can step into this or put ourselves in the position to decide now to commit to something that will cultivate this in us?

Mitch: [27:14]
More on the daily. How do we cultivate this practice?

Dane: [27:18]
Yeah, I mean, the ancients, they would just get along by themselves, you know, solitude, it's powerful. You get bored with yourself pretty quickly if you buy yourself long enough and you start getting curious if you can bear it. That's a very tall order, though. Solitude is a pretty significant heavyweight. Pascale used to talk about this famous French philosopher.

Dane: [27:40]
We're talk about our biggest problem as human beings. This is a paraphrase, is our inability to sit by ourselves in our room and imagine sitting in our selves without a phone, you know, what would that be like? So I do think that could be that could be helpful. Get out of the echo chambers of our feeds and our stuff.

Dane: [27:56]
It can be helpful. But I do think it's hard if we're going to be alone. Like, here's the rub, Henry. Now he's talked about this like when we get alone. At first it just feels lonely and we're just desperate to not feel lonely. But if you hang in there long enough, you get to a place of solitude and actually solitude.

Dane: [28:14]
All the ancients knew this. It that was like, if you could. If you could be okay by yourself, you could walk into any relationship and be honest because you were practicing that thing. And but at that feels like too big of a stretch because it sounds too whatever. I would just say like, pick the thing, the thing that you don't like to do every day and do it every day.

Dane: [28:34]
So for me, the beginning of my practice was I talk about this all the time, was flossing my teeth, I never floss my teeth. And I decided I was going to become a flosser. And if you want to become a flosser from day one and never miss a day for the rest of your life, I have an easy pattern to do.

Dane: [28:49]
I took the cue from James clear himself the habit guy, and it's called habit stacking, where you put something that's already in place in your life that you're never going to miss. Second, and the new habit you want. So building just before it. So I decided I wanted to floss, and I just made a rule for myself that I didn't get to pee.

Dane: [29:08]
When I wake up in the morning until I flossed. And guess what? I've never missed a day of flossing since because I'm really clear about it. So doing uncomfortable things. These are the building blocks is basic, fundamental things because it raises agency and strength and awareness. And you start I mean, we call this podcast strong and awake for a reason.

Dane: [29:28]
That's the point. So doing things that make you strong and awake, here's what doesn't make you strong in a way, all the things that you're drifting towards that are really easy. If that's your prescription for yourself to get to the kind of world that we've been talking about in this conversation, it will not get you there. That will not deliver.

Dane: [29:47]
There's going to be some discomfort, and you can tell it's uncomfortable when you don't want to do it and you do it anyways. That's the trick. And if you can find some minimal viable practice to do that every day, get after it. You don't need men and women of discomfort, but if you want to guarantee that it's going to happen, like one choice to participate in will make the rest of your choices for you.

Dane: [30:07]
And I promise you, they're all going to be uncomfortable. Come hang out with us because we love to gently walk people through a process where this becomes normal and they actually have a pathway to, I think, the life that is truly life.

Mitch: [30:19]
It's a good word. Well, for those of you who are listening and watching, we've talked about a lot of things. And if you want to learn about all of those and expanded extended episodes about each of those, we'll have those in the description or the episode show notes and in addition to that, you'll also find more information about men and women of discomfort.

Mitch: [30:38]
Thank you Dane really appreciate it.

Dane: [30:40]
Thanks, Man, until next time. Men and women of discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone. But keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that, or if you want to find out for yourself, you can find us at MWOD.io, the information material we're sharing. But in this podcast or anything connected to have men or women have discomfort or feeling as corporate, it is all for general information purposes only.

Dane: [31:03]
You should not rely on this material or information on this podcast. The basis for making any kind of decision. We do our best to do everything up to date, correct? We do a lot of due diligence, but the responsibility on you to make sure that you're in sync with your own medical professionals, that you wouldn't see what we're offering here is somehow a warranty or representation in any kind, expressed or implied about this incomplete, accurate, reliable, suitable or comprehensive in any kind of way.

Dane: [31:21]
It's critical you own your agency, which is part of everything we do a minimum of discomfort. We invite you to take them what they're offering and consider for yourself. And if it's helpful, please do take advantage of it. But if you do is you who is taking the opportunity. And we're assuming that you've done your due diligence with it.

Dane: [31:33]
Thanks.