Not Feeling It? Do This. | Ep. 13

Dane: [00:00]
You've given up on yourself in the past. And, the physiological realities of what you're experiencing in combination with the emotional and creative storytelling that we create inside ourselves, when they all kind of gang up on the current you and you're tempted to just crumble, what do you do to not crumble?

Dane: [00:24]
What do you do to stand up? I would love to talk about that.

Dane: [00:28]
As humans we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path, to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

Dane: [00:52]
This is Strong & Awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

Mitch: [00:56]
We all know the feeling. You wake up, the alarm's going off. You're debating, do I snooze it? Do I keep sleeping? Do I wake up? On the other side of that, you have the maybe rough night of sleep that you had, the rough day of work previously. Maybe you got great sleep. Either way, we've all been confronted with this moment and this decision where we're up against it.

Mitch: [01:19]
We're in the slog. We're tired. We don't have that motivation, that feeling like we want to do the thing, whether that's waking up, working out, doing this hard thing, having a hard conversation. And in today's conversation, we're going to talk about that. What do you do? When you don't feel like doing the thing when you aren't feeling it.

Mitch: [01:40]
And we've got an expert Dane Sanders in doing the thing, even when you don't feel like it

Mitch: [01:46]
and I know I said that.

Dane: [01:47]
I've got wounds to prove it. I got wounds. They're all over the place. Yeah. let's make the, let's make it even more dramatic.

Mitch: [01:54]
Do it.

Dane: [01:55]
Let's start with that premise of you just don't feel like it.

Dane: [01:58]
You're, you got hit by a truck. You're under a bus. Yeah. You're out of energy and you have a story to back it up, you're laying in bed or you're in the spot, wherever it is, and you're, your internal narrative is just on overdrive telling you all the reasons why you are justified not to, or let's say it's around like food, like why you're justified to have it, have this treat or have this where you're breaking your word to yourself.

Dane: [02:27]
Really the point, like you said to yourself, it was going to not do this, or I was going to do this. And you're going in the opposite direction precisely because not only does your body not feel like it, but you are telling your story to back up that feeling, to justify it, to be, be like, you know what, I think there's just this once I'm going to be fine.

Dane: [02:48]
And it's, and almost like, there's often a little edge to it. Like the sense of like, I'm, you're kind of mad at someone. You're not sure exactly who, but you're, you're like, Oh, I'm going to show them. And the truth is they is you, right? Because if you're, if you're breaking a commitment to yourself, then you committed to you that you're going to do a thing.

Dane: [03:10]
And you are saying to some version of you that screw you. I'm going to this, this current version of me is going to rule the roost and do whatever the hell it feels like. And what do you do then? If there's still a part of you, some little whisper inside of you that says, please don't, please don't do it again.

Dane: [03:29]
This time, please, please find a new way out of this spot, because we all know how this is going to end. None of us are going to be happy. Any of the you's that are fighting internally in your life, you're all going to be discouraged at the end of this. And you know it. You've been down this road before.

Dane: [03:46]
You've given up on yourself in the past. And, and the physiological realities of what you're experiencing in combination with the emotional and creative storytelling that we create inside ourselves, when they all kind of gang up on the current you and you're tempted to just crumble, what do you do to not crumble What do you do to stand up? I would love to talk about that. And the place I want to start with first is from a place of significant empathy. I have a, I have a friend, you and I both have a friend. He'll go nameless. Who is in our Men and Women of Discomfort community, who is not just feeling bad. He has objective data that is undeniable.

Dane: [04:38]
He found out something very serious about his child, and that is their first child, he and his wife. And in the midst of this trauma that isn't just current, the child's life isn't in danger right now, but There's a, there's a very likelihood, it's a high likelihood that this person, this kid will be impaired in a very significant way, possibly for the rest of their life.

Dane: [05:03]
So, with the, in light of this news, this individual went to see a doctor in another town, and stayed with family, and in the process of staying with family, another family member took, took their life, in that house that they were visiting. And You add all that up and you have someone who's in our community, who's committed to be a part of like building a practice.

Dane: [05:28]
And from an empathy perspective, and this was our response to this individual was dude, you're off the hook. Like you are, you are under it. There is nobody here saying you should do anything. If you want to crawl in a hole right now, everyone's in agreement. It's just, you're in an awful position. We understand.

Dane: [05:48]
And we don't understand, but you're under duress at a level we can't really speak to. And it reminds me a lot of my friend, Tim, who started Men and Women of Discomfort with me. And when he got stomach cancer on his final year of life, man, oh man, if anyone could get a hall pass, it was Tim in my view.

Dane: [06:09]
And. there's no one outside of the individual who's going to hold an authoritative position and say, you should do X or Y or Z. In my view there might be a God who might have good insight for you, but I'm not that so and we're not, so, so what do you do for that situation? Well, in the first example I gave of the individuals in our community right now, I was in a a conversation with him last night and he was talking about how in the midst of being Utterly under duress, he has been clinging to his daily practice, like his daily practice has actually buoyed him in a way that he's been surprised by, and it's not because of some checklist he needs to do to feel better about himself or trying to be a perfectionist or whatever, he's just realized the resource it is to have an immovable object in his life that he can count on that isn't emotionally laden.

Dane: [07:04]
That it actually is just something he can do physically with his body. Have some kind of exhale in his life. Can actually be whatever he needs to be in the middle of it. He could be a hot emotional mess in the middle of whatever he's doing. But that practice is precisely the thing that he needs in the moment that he's in.

Dane: [07:27]
And for a lot of people that can sound very foreign, it's like, no, no, no. When you're really under it, what you need is a hundred percent support. And what this individual has recognized, and I have an agreement with him, is if you can somehow find a way, and I get it if you can't, I mean, it's just, if he didn't do this, I would go, okay, we love you, man.

Dane: [07:45]
If you're in, you're in, if you're not, you're not totally get it. But what I'm so struck by is hit by his own testimony. He's saying. This is the thing that is, is helping me keep my head above the water and actually to be able to be there for other people that are buried underneath the water, that they can cling on to him as he's buoyed, they're holding on to him and they're all, they can all kind of catch a breath because he has some stability in the midst of the storm that maybe others don't have us the habit or ritual or, or whatever.

Dane: [08:19]
Or practice to hold them up in certain ways. So long winded example, but I think an important one to consider first of all, empathetically, whether it's super extreme, like the individuals I'm describing or it's just a small things over a long period of time where you're just beat down, you're exhausted.

Dane: [08:39]
And you're like, I don't know how to go, where to go from here. We're talking to you today. If that it's the bill for you and any recent moment, we want to speak directly to that reality. But we don't want to miss the point of talking past you. You're what you're feeling is real. And the feelings are often overwhelming and are telling you like things, it almost feels like things are ganging up against you to not go do the thing, whatever the thing is.

Dane: [09:07]
And you know what it is, the challenge, the obstacle, the, the hill to climb that, you know, your highest and best self would want you to, if you could somehow find a way. So what do you do in that spot?

\[: [00:09:19]
Dane: [09:44]
Please let me just turn over, or crawl back to bed, or whatever it is. And in our world, men, women, and discomfort, it often is actual cold water. Like, literally getting up, getting into a cold shower. Why in the world would we do it? Well, you can listen to Andrew Huberman, and he'll tell you a lot of great scientific reasons why.

Dane: [10:03]
Cold water's really good for you, and you can kind of follow your social feed around a thousand different cold plunges you can go purchase these days. Cause I promise you, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably getting this served up and or you could just turn on a cold shower.

Dane: [10:20]
Get it as cold as you can on the day you don't want to do it. And you have about 18 seconds worth of work to do. 18 seconds. Getting your, your hold of your breath in the middle of a day like that, precisely when you don't want to. Like, going in, it's George Costanza, going in the exact opposite direction of what is, is, you feel like is telling you, the world is telling you, your world is telling you.

Dane: [10:46]
You, you go in the exact opposite direction for an 18 second drill. In my experience is one of the best ways to kind of have a, a stark interruption. It's like that you're having a heart attack and you get that needle in the chest, except for it's not a needle and no one's gonna die. You're just kind of going into the water and you breathe your way to normalcy.

Dane: [11:05]
You're actually, and it's actually not fixing anything. It's just waking you up to a bigger reality. And when you have that experience of kind of getting a hold of yourself, of telling your emotional state that it is valid, but ought not lead you in what you're gonna do next. You will be in a much stronger position and the, and whether it doesn't have to be a cold shower, it could be kind of whatever you can imagine.

Dane: [11:29]
That would be the hardest thing you could go do for some people. That's like, I'm going to have a cup of coffee and not put creamer in it. This is my day. I'm really going to go for it and taste the bitterness of real coffee. And if that's you, that's you. For others, it's like, you get out of bed. The first thing you do is you, you, you, you don't think about it.

Dane: [11:47]
You, you sh yourself. You literally save yourself all the noise. Yeah. All the storage, put on your sneakers, run around the block. Doesn't matter. Raining, cold, doesn't matter. The point isn't the run. The point isn't the shower. The point isn't the coffee. The point is, you have been entranced into a state that is not trustworthy.

Dane: [12:15]
And it's not serving you in this moment. Even when it's significant to rest. Now, again, I really want to state, especially given the examples I gave at the front end, There are traumatic moments when you when you're when you're in trauma you go to the trauma ward you go to like ICU intensive care like I actually do believe in intensive care.

Dane: [12:36]
I think that you have to stabilize Before you can get out of that thing and even the example I gave with that individual the front end This is someone who had been building a practice for a significant amount of time and he had that to lean on he didn't invent the practice In the middle of the trauma, he had the, he had the practice in advance, so I'm not prescribing all of a sudden, you're going to start cold plunging in the midst of grief but at some point, you're going to want to get ahold of yourself again and whenever that is, these are the patterns that we've seen consistently start the process of finding a way forward, not only in a moment, but when it becomes a habit that turns into a routine that turns into a practice.

Dane: [13:17]
It actually becomes a, an asset in our lives that we can lean on. In order to get out of these kinds of holes consistently on the daily. I find even in a given week, like usually Monday, Tuesday, Wednesdays are strong. I'm ready to go days. But if I've really worked hard, Thursday, Fridays, they're tougher, man.

Dane: [13:37]
It's like more than a day. Like the hours between two and five o'clock are a lot different than the hours between seven and 10 AM. So what do you do? Well, these are some of the things that you do and you find a way forward by, ironically doing the very thing that you don't want to do, but in a micro way, just to get enough traction to start moving.

Dane: [14:02]
And, and on the other side of it, oh my gosh, when you feel like under a bus and you somehow get out from under a bus, It really is gratifying. Like it's a tremendous feeling. It's heroic even. And that's precisely what we're talking about.

Mitch: [14:20]
I think the probably antidote or answer to whatever variety of duress that you're feeling is the same.

Mitch: [14:26]
But we've been speaking about kind of like acute distress, acute, like you're under the bus, maybe literally. But there's also that kind of like the maybe more prevalent, I don't know, but like the slog, the, the mundane, the ordinary, the boring, the, the routine that I feel like a lot of people find themselves in.

Mitch: [14:49]
And also, Maybe you sometimes find it harder to wake up out of that or become aware of that state that they're in. Yeah. Well, so before we move to the, those antidotes or the, the answer or like your first step, like how do you even start to become aware and awake to the state that you're in

Mitch: [15:05]
currently?

Dane: [15:06]
Yeah. I love that question and, and really it comes back to kind of three answers to three different problems that we talk about all the time. At men and women of discomfort and and here strong and awake, but the three are are acutely the the drift the whirlwind and the comfort so what we already talked about the acute super cute examples are storms, right?

Dane: [15:29]
They're the whirlwind of being a human being they're Hitting you they're the bus But there's also just the slog the the drift the you're out of juice This is the 2 to 4 p. m in the afternoon or the thursday friday at the end of the week There's nothing to really point at apart from you've worked really hard and you're tired and you feel like you deserve an extra glass of wine.

Dane: [15:54]
Or you deserve a third helping or a second dessert or to skip the workout today or fill in the blank, whatever the thing is. And, and that's entirely entropy, right? Like we're exhausted and we're at a weakened state where you were hangry or so we can justify getting short with our kids or with our, our partners.

Dane: [16:17]
Or even just a retail worker at Home Depot. Like it doesn't matter what it is. It's just, We're out of juice, it seems. And the response, we've already talked about the response to the whirlwind, the response to the drift. Here's what it isn't. It isn't comfort. It isn't convenience. It isn't the easy way.

Dane: [16:35]
Just last night, I was in a phone call with my daughter yesterday afternoon. Actually, my daughter, she's a, a young adult living on her own in Santa Barbara, graduated from college. And, She and I were talking about we're actually in a really dense conversation, but this article we read about this, this this guy named McLuhan he's famous for the phrase the, the medium is the message.

Dane: [16:58]
He was a kind of a social philosopher back in 60s and 70s he was just unbelievable. Like there's clips of him where he'll talk about chat GPT. And then you realize he recorded this in 1960 before email and the internet. And he's talking directly. He didn't name it chat GPT, but the way he's describing, you're like.

Dane: [17:23]
That's Chats GPT and most of us didn't even envision it a year ago. And here he is decades before. And how did he see it? And why? And so he's so he's like a prophet in his ability to see the influence of all these things. And what he was really talking about, this is really important was first with television and then it extended on through all of the innovations that we've all experienced.

Dane: [17:44]
And you think about these immersive tools that are in play right now, right? He basically says what was, what was deconstructed with all these innovations was we basically removed time and space. So now all of a sudden we can be conscious of information as if it's our information, but it's actually the, it's other people's information.

Dane: [18:04]
It's other parts of the world. So all of a sudden, you know, Mitch, you and I can, can talk about Sacramento Kings beating up on the Minnesota Timberwolves and talk about a particular play. And we both know exactly what we're talking about, but we weren't together when we saw it. And neither of us were in, in Sacramento or Minneapolis when it happened.

Dane: [18:22]
And how is that? Well, because we're all aware of everything all the time. This is the zeitgeist has expanded and we're super conscious of it. So what's the net effect? Well, for my daughter who has a high empathy kind of tendency, she feels the weight of the world all the time. Her sense of justice around what's happening and the Gaza Strip or, you know regardless of your take on that thing or what's going on in the, in Ukraine or going on and, and, and politics or like the way it feels like the weight of the world is on her shoulders and she feels this serious pressure to escape from those things.

Dane: [18:58]
So she looks for, for comforts and treats and, you know, things to listen to. Like she, she was talking about going to the grocery store and wearing her, her over ear headphones. She's like, it would be really hard to go to the grocery store and not have that experience of, of kind of, of Listening to music so immersively in the midst of doing my shopping.

Dane: [19:18]
And I have this kind of, it's kind of a, I love going to the grocery store. It's like this escape for me. And what she was lamenting in the conversation was like, I'm just not very good at being bored. And we were talking about how boredom is this incredible, if you want to be creative and you don't want to be bored, good luck.

Dane: [19:36]
Like boredom is the fastest way. To create that I know or to enjoy the real surroundings that you're in, not just the stuff that's kind of coming at us, but like going on a trail run with an audio book in your ears versus going on a trail run with nothing in your ears is the difference between actually being on that trail or being somewhere else, like dividing, like not wanting to experience what goes into a run.

Dane: [20:03]
Including the surroundings and the smells and all the things but instead to experience The distraction of somebody's talking to you so that you can just get through the run Well, I would argue that that Voluntary discomfort of Of not wearing the air pods when you're running, of not wearing the over your things when you're grocery shopping.

Dane: [20:28]
Like none of those things are bad. They're great. They're fun. They're cool. Like in terms of being human here now, it actually, or, or actually finding energy to get through the slog. Well, oftentimes we don't because we can't imagine getting through the slog without these extra things added to the equation.

Dane: [20:48]
Like I can't get through the slog of a run. I can't go get my groceries. I can't go. Unless I have my little things. And I would argue if that's you, you're in a really weak state. You're not very strong. You don't have high capacity to get through hard things. And if you don't have high capacity to get through hard things, especially in the world we live in, it's going to be very difficult to not only feed your family, but like, feel like you have any sense of satisfaction in your life.

Dane: [21:12]
In my view, in the long haul. And so, we have to find ways to get out from underneath the slog at 2 to 4 in the afternoon. Get out from underneath. The slog of Thursdays and Fridays. And it usually comes through what we do on Mondays and Tuesdays and between seven and 10, when we remove the, the the barriers to boredom, the barriers to the hard bits when we have energy, because ironically, when we do that, we actually become energetic.

Dane: [21:42]
Like we actually, it's, it's, it improves our capacity to do things. When we make those investments on the front end of a day or the front end of a week. We actually not only get more done in those front, front ends, but oftentimes we actually have a greater capacity to get through the tiring moments later in the day, or, or even better, if we realize we actually are tired, we're wise enough to not to go have a nap as opposed to just trying to grind more, trusting that we got all that work done anyways, maybe we need to rest and maybe that's the appropriate response.

Dane: [22:17]
So in my experience, the people are really serious about getting underneath. out from underneath the bus or getting through the slog, rule number one is don't make your response to those things comfort. If you can, if you can somehow find a way, if you can somehow find a way to push back against the currents of life or to, to cling to a practice that buoys you in the storms that tethers you to the ground, you are going to be so grateful on the other side of the storm passing on the other side.

Dane: [22:54]
of the slog just kind of dissipating because you'll feel so much more accomplished. Like you did the thing and, and on top of it, like the process itself was enjoyable and the other side of it, the, the means and the end.

Mitch: [23:09]
Yeah.

Mitch: [23:11]
There's so much there. There's so much there. And, and we're, we're, you know, we're talking about this question of like, what do you do when, when you aren't feeling it?

Mitch: [23:18]
And like, I'd like to explore that a little bit more because like, yes. We've talked about identifying when you're in that slog or the whirlwind or the drift. Mm-Hmm. . We've talked a little bit about some, like maybe strategies or like first steps. what about that feeling I want to zero in on feeling like, let's talk about emotions because that, that can be a massive driver in our lives.

Mitch: [23:43]
It's almost like that. You know, you, hit the knee and you've got the immediate reflex without your brain telling it to do it. That oftentimes for a lot of us is what our feelings or emotions are. So I'd love to dig

Mitch: [23:56]
into that

Dane: [23:56]
and let's dig into it. So this is not new information, but it's not information that's popular these days..

Dane: [24:02]
When we have, let's say the feelings of flight or fight in response to danger, I would, I'm not going to argue this just for myself, I think it's a, it's a well documented, Fact that most every living animal, insect, whatever, that instinct is reactionary and really helpful. It keeps us alive.

Dane: [24:27]
Those feelings are worth paying attention to. But the good news is you don't even have to pay attention to it because when you're actually in real danger, it will just happen. You know, you don't have to think about it. You're just going to like react when that happens. That's appropriate. What's interesting about humans though, Especially in the modern era is we're actually in that kind of danger very rarely.

Dane: [24:53]
But our physiological response to those things is very high. So for example, we talked about the cold shower. You get in the cold shower, you're going to have a flight or fight response. You're not going to want to be there. I get it. Me too. Every day, except for Sundays. And in that effort here's what can happen.

Dane: [25:09]
Your body is saying flight or fight. When your neocortex overrides that, when you take executive functioning in that moment, you actually. are telling your body you're going to be okay. It's going to be just fine. And you kind of get ahold of your, you slow your breathing down, slow your heart rate, whatever gasping sounds you're making, just relax, you know, settle into it.

Dane: [25:31]
And it's so familiar because it just happened a few minutes ago. It's one of the reasons why I wear so many warm coats on these podcasts.

Dane: [25:37]
When you get ahold of it, it just, it begins, it shifts. And I get a new feeling. So the feeling that I had at the front end is deceiving. The feeling I have in the back end is validating.

Dane: [25:50]
But both, in both cases, all feelings do is tell us how we accurately feel in a given moment. They ought not be the thing that drives the feeling. Our decisions, unless it's truly either fight. And again, because it happened so rarely, our interest is to get ahold of ourselves. And let me give you just a couple of like really practical examples.

Dane: [26:12]
Anytime I'll speak for myself, I've been in a situation and at listeners, anyone who's out there that can relate to this. You tell me if this doesn't resonate, you're in a situation. Someone says something that's triggering to you and you get angry, disproportionately angry. How do you feel on the other side of that disproportionate anger?

Dane: [26:31]
Almost universally, when people slow down and relax, they go, Oh, why did, why did they get so mad? I'm so pissed. I got so mad. Or you're, you're rude to the kids. You, you, you say the bad word, you, you know, you're, you're kind of a jerk to the person who cuts you off in the freeway and you, and you just look at it, you go, you might justify it for a minute or two.

Dane: [26:52]
Like, I can't believe that jerk did that, but then at some point you go, but I was the jerk who flipped him off after what's that about? I'm that person. Oh, that's a, I would rather flip those feelings. I would rather not feel just out in the front end in exchange to feeling great on the back end. But that only happens.

Dane: [27:13]
when you get cut off on the freeway and you forgive the person. Like right then you don't escalate. You don't match it. You don't get your way at home Depot and you don't get mad. The retail worker actually started thinking like, I don't have to work at home Depot. Like,

Mitch: [27:30]
at least you don't have to work at Lowe's.

Mitch: [27:33]
I mean, come on.

Dane: [27:34]
I used to work at home Depot, so I don't know why I say that really cool idea. But, but you get my point that, that you could, you're going to feel something in the front and you're going to feel something after no matter what. If you want the feeling after to be really strong, you need to find a way to override the feelings you're having in the short term.

Dane: [27:58]
So this sense of delayed gratification, the gratification, that's a feeling, that's a highly attuned human skill that very few people cultivate. Because short term gratification is comfort. Long term gratification is putting off comfort to have real comfort. You know, we've said this before, but this is the great irony of men and women of discomfort, is we're more committed to comfort than almost anybody, because we're willing to suffer for it, to get the good kind of comfort that comes after, not before.

Dane: [28:28]
If you're getting it early, you're getting paid early, and you're going to be resentful for the work that comes next. You do the work first, and you get paid for a good day's work, you're going to be really happy, You did that work, you're going to be grateful, but you get the order wrong and everything goes sideways.

Dane: [28:43]
And the order usually is connected to over indexing on giving power to our emotions. So when we're in the middle of the moment, so when we have that flight or fight experience, our job is to go, are we actually in that experience? Is this actually a moment for me to get upset? Or is it a moment where I can tell my emotions, like I hear you and your feelings are valid, but I'm going to attend to you in a minute after I make the stronger leadership move to self lead in a direction that's toward love or toward something that's transcendent or bigger or more attuned with my higher ideals.

Dane: [29:20]
And, and you do that, even though it's hard in the short term, about 18 seconds later, you're going to find yourself feeling like, I'm really glad I did. I did it that way. In fact, a hundred percent of the time, you're going to feel that.

Mitch: [29:33]
Right. Right. And I think it's important to like your, statement in passing of like, I hear you.

Mitch: [29:40]
I see you emotions, but I'm just not going to act on that right now, or I'm not going to give that power. I'm going to, I'm going to wait or delay a little bit. I think there's this. Misunderstanding and maybe with a lot of our listeners too of like this what stoicism has become to like be understood as like and you know There's a lot of arguments to be made that that's not a really when we talk about being stoic That's not really truly what being so it was about but what I don't want people to hear is that we're we're saying Feelings are meaningless feelings are worthless like suppress them ignore them at all costs.

Mitch: [30:14]
Right. I mean, unless that is what you're saying, but I don't think that's what

Mitch: [30:17]
you're saying.

Dane: [30:18]
No. Well, it's, maybe I'll say it this way. If I'm a parent and I see a kid, like a toddler, Having a temper tantrum. I think that's what our feelings are like there. It's like our, those, those reactionary short term feelings, those bursts. They're the part of us that are still very, very young and can't actually discern between thoughts and feelings.

Dane: [30:41]
And who do I want to be? And all that kind of, we're kind of, you haven't come into yourself yet. So we don't get mad at a two year old for having a tantrum because they're two year olds having tantrums. That's what two year olds do. It's kind of their job in the short term, right? And at some point though, if they're still having tantrums, At the grocery store aisle and they're 26, like, or 47 or 92, like 92.

Dane: [31:08]
Good luck. But like 46, 52, like that's bad news, man. It's bad news. And what do we do with our toddlers? Well, we acknowledge them. We see them. We don't get mad at them. Well, sometimes we do, but we try not to feel good when we do, but most of the time, smart parents, what they do is they pick their kid up and put them in a new context.

Dane: [31:31]
They don't attend to the feeling directly. They just put the kid in another place where the feeling will shift. And why wouldn't we do the same thing with our little young selves that are having these reactionary moments? So, I think it's just recognizing the nature of what it means to be a human being.

Dane: [31:48]
That these are very predictable patterns that happen over and over and over again. We just don't always cooperate with those patterns in a way that sets people up to flourish. And we're tempted. To just go with the flow, go with our feelings. And we have a cultural moment where the therapeutic is one, like it's, it's all about how do you feel?

Dane: [32:07]
And it's like, I don't know that my feelings are very relevant. Right now, thank you for asking. Mm-Hmm, . But I'm feeling really sad and really angry and I'm intentionally in a disciplined way gonna attend to those in a minute. 'cause right now what's required is the decision. And I wanna make the most loving decision I can.

Dane: [32:25]
And if I go off my feelings, I'm gonna punch you in the nose. And I don't wanna punch you in the nose. I don't wanna be that guy. So what would it look like for me to slow the train down, make a decision, do the hard thing? Well, the result will be, I'll feel fricking amazing, but that's uncommon. That's not what could celebrate it.

Dane: [32:47]
Even like, except for like great reality TV shows, like the great British bake off, most reality shows are just awful, awful, or just train wrecks edited just to promote the idea that what you should do is follow your emotions at all times. And, and they're trained and we, we tune in cause they're trained.

Dane: [33:06]
We were like, we can't keep our eyes off of train wrecks, right? That was to the Andy Warhol. Yeah, that's it. Yeah. That's it. So, but do you want to pattern your life that way? I don't think so.

Mitch: [33:16]
Yeah. So, going back to some of these like next steps or strategies, you talked about being okay, being bored, like releasing on some things or giving up ahead of time.

Mitch: [33:26]
Some things you've talked about in the moments, breaking yourselves out, doing the hard thing, going in the opposite direction, hopping in that cold shower. What, what are, what are some other, like, maybe things. we often talk in the, well, people often talk in this kind of context of becoming a better person or, or rather doing better things almost.

Mitch: [33:47]
They talk about motivation. How do you hack this? How do you get more motivation? And I think we can like rely a lot on that almost extrinsic motivation. Yeah. And I think, you know, you and I have had many conversations in the community about extrinsic versus intrinsic, and I'd love to kind of invite our listeners and viewers into, into some of that, that

Mitch: [34:06]
conversation as well.

Dane: [34:08]
Well, I want to talk to two different people in this regard, because there's some people that this is totally new to, and there's others who have been doing some version of this for a long time. And I think you have two options available to you, depending on where you're at on that spectrum. So, if you're just getting started, and the idea of, like, interrupting your emotions is a whole new thing, and, and having executive functioning, and, you know, getting a hold of yourself is a new idea.

Dane: [34:33]
I would start as small as you possibly could imagine. For me and I've said this on this show before but like it was flossing my teeth I was just like I don't floss my teeth enough. It's really boring to floss your teeth. It takes time I don't want to do it But I am always glad that I did it especially when I go to the dentist and the morning before I go to the dentist Which I'm going to the dentist today, by the way,

Dane: [34:54]
which is so fun Because I floss every day now, right?

Dane: [34:58]
So it used to be I'd go to the dentist and I The morning of, I'm flossing my teeth to make up for lost time.

Mitch: [35:04]
Cramming.

Dane: [35:05]
My mouth is like oozing blood as I'm walking in. And they're like, do you floss? I'm like, oh yeah. And they're like, we know. Like, there's no hiding. Like, the proof's in the performance, right?

Dane: [35:16]
So but that's not true anymore. Because years ago, I got really clear. It's James Clear's little extrinsic hack of habit stacking. Where you put a habit that you know you already do, that you won't ever miss. For me, that was going to the bathroom in the morning. In front of flossing your teeth and making that a religious rule in your life so you don't get to go pee until you floss.

Dane: [35:39]
Well, I instantly started the habit. I never missed a day since, except for when I don't have floss. And that's been very rare. I mean, I buy in bulk these days. So, I, I'm all, I'm in good stead and I, I'm a flosser. That's what I do. It's on my habit list and it shouldn't even be on my habit list because I don't miss this is who I am now and whatever that is for you to get some traction is totally fine and this the least amount the better this is where I think I would totally endorse James is cleared new Adam Adams Adam app it's so clever like it's a habit creation Adams ATOMS it's a habit creation app That he won't even let you put in more than one habit at a time until you get a streak of like 30 days in a row.

Dane: [36:26]
It's so clever and minimal viable is the whole point. And he has all this great training. It's an amazing, amazing little app that he's created. And I think it's it's great to get traction and get started, but for other people who are hearing this, and maybe you've heard me give that example too many times, they they're like, I get it, man, I have flossed my teeth.

Dane: [36:45]
That's not what I'm looking for. I'm looking for something that actually. I've been, I have my streaks, I've set my environment, I've done all the little external things to get things going. I've done my stacking. Well, good for you. Now is probably the time to graduate from external motivators to internal motivators.

Dane: [37:02]
External motivators are these kinds of things that give you status or show you that you've done something like streaks or badges or gamification. And all those things are really helpful on the front end of getting things going, but they won't sustain you. At some point, they just kind of get boring.

Dane: [37:16]
They just aren't enough. And. You start to realize like I'm only, I'm doing it for the streak more than I am doing it. Cause I want to do this anymore. Well, to get it to a place where you own it more, more authentically you start to go internal. And the three greatest motivators for that are to increase your agency.

Dane: [37:36]
So I am the kind of person who does the hard thing. It's the, I feel like this is hard. That means I go towards that thing. The bell goes off. I don't run away. I run toward the bell. If that's your bias, And you practice that over and over again, or at least it's your commitment. You're going to find that pretty quickly.

Dane: [37:52]
And if that becomes a habit you're going to, you're going to grow in your character exponentially. And it's not going to be because anybody gave you a trophy. It's going to be because you. you understand what kind of a benefit it is to have agency in your life. And that's just one. Another is like just deciding, I want to get better every single day.

Dane: [38:13]
That's internal mastery competence. The idea that if I can get a little better every day, I'm going to actually enjoy it's like a little investment, a vote for myself, a compound interest thing that over time increases in value. And there's no question that's true. And the third is if you do this in the context of community, Like we do at Men and Women of Discomfort.

Dane: [38:33]
You belong to something. We have a really interesting phenomenon in our community where. When people are first starting out, they join and they start kind of hacking our community. They start co opting. They're, they're kind of doing some of our things, but they, they kind of take a couple and they don't, they don't do it in community.

Dane: [38:50]
They kind of separate off on their own and kind of customize it. And they think it's, that's appropriate. That's good. And they think maybe even agency and they're misunderstanding entirely because What they're, by not participating in what we're doing, they're disqualifying themselves from belonging to the thing that we're doing collectively, which also offers a tremendous sense of internal purpose and power.

Dane: [39:11]
All these things, agency mastery or competence and belonging, these are straight out of fantastic science self determination theory, look it up. It is the most persistent theory of motivation in all of psychology that I'm aware of. In terms of great studies that back all of this up, that these are the long term drivers, these things that, that persist over years and decades when you invest in them.

Dane: [39:38]
So get started with those external things if it's helpful, but as soon as you can, wean yourself off of those things and get onto these more intrinsic drivers that you can really start stacking and building and actually build a life around, a context around. And that's precisely what we do at Men and Women of Discomfort is we spend In 90 day chunks, little windows to, to maybe leverage a couple extrinsic drivers, but, but pretty quickly people start getting into the intrinsic drivers and they, they're hooked for life.

Dane: [40:08]
They're just like, I found a new way, whether they're with our community or not, they found a way that is sustainable for the whole of their lives.

Mitch: [40:16]
I mean, I don't think there's a more appropriate. Bow to tie on the end of that, Dane.

Dane: [40:24]
Well, I will say this, if people don't do Men & Women Of Discomfort, that's fine. Find something, find something. And it's okay to start with some experiments. Do that. That's great. But don't write us off too quickly. It might be that for a few of you who are listening this, like getting involved with our community, even just, Even going just to MWOD.io

Dane: [40:44]
and filling out the application, and don't sign up, just fill the application, answer the questions, would probably do more to move you in the right direction than almost anything I could imagine. And, and hear it from me. I'm co founder. You don't have to sign up. Just go do the thing. But the application alone for some of you will, will reflect back to you like a mirror some really helpful internal conversations to figure out what do you really want?

Dane: [41:11]
And, and as you do that, I think the path will start to become evident for you.

Mitch: [41:17]
There you have it. You can find that link in the description and the show notes, wherever you're watching this below this video or audio you can find that link. It's MWOD. io. Thanks again, Dane.

Dane: [41:29]
Thanks, Mitch.

Dane: [41:30]
Men and women of discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone but keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that or if you want to find out for yourself you can find us at mwod.io the information and material that we're sharing both of this podcast or anything connected to men or women of discomfort or flying s incorporated it's all for general information purposes only Only you should not rely on this material or information on this podcast as a basis for making any kind of decision.

Dane: [41:55]
We do our best to keep everything up to date and correct, and we do a lot of due diligence, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that you're in sync with your own medical professionals that you wouldn't see what we're offering here as somehow a warranty or representation in any kind expressed or implied about this being complete, accurate, reliable, suitable, or comprehensive in any kind of way.

Dane: [42:09]
It's critical you own your agency, which is at the heart of everything we do of Discomfort. We invite you to take the input that we're offering and consider it for yourself. And if it's helpful, please do take advantage of it. But if you do, it's you who is taking the opportunity and we're assuming that you've done your due diligence with it.

Dane: [42:21]
Thanks.