Reinventing Failure | Ep. 6

Dane: [00:00]
This isn't about theory. It's about what we're going to do with our real lives when we actually experience the experience of failure. This is the gold. It is achieved regularly by people we call heroes. They don't just bear the feeling. They embrace it all. Maybe I'm outraged. Or maybe I'm devastated. But in the embrace of it, when you can choose the painful bits, you actually have an ability to embrace the moment and embrace reality.

Dane: [00:26]
We need people who have a capacity to stand, and that doesn't just happen on the spot. That happens from practice. As humans, we prefer the path of least resistance. We crave convenience, the payoff without the price. But when our lives revolve around comfort, it doesn't deliver. Living in perpetual comfort leaves us weak and asleep. This podcast is an invitation to flip that script, to choose the unlikely path to get the life you really want through voluntary discomfort.

Dane: [00:57]
This is strong and awake. I'm Dane Sanders.

Mitch: [01:00]
Hey Dane

Dane: [01:01]
Hey Mitch

Mitch: [01:02]
I would love to talk about something that might be triggering to some people, and that is failure.

Dane: [01:09]
Why do you think it's triggering triggering some really interesting kind of very, very chic of the moment word. What is triggering about failure?

Mitch: [01:19]
I Think.

Dane: [01:20]
What would it trigger?

Mitch: [01:22]
Yeah, I think failure and how we relate to failure really kind of informs a lot of how we kind of navigate this world. In my opinion, I've seen that in my own life. If I'm relating to failure in an unhelpful way, it's something that I avoid at all costs. And if I'm relating to it in a healthy, more integrated way, I find that it is not something to be feared.

Mitch: [01:48]
Takes power out the wind, out of it sails and is actually something that that I can leverage and empowers me. Well.

Dane: [01:56]
I think here's here's some right out of the gate suffer like none of this is in our free game. Yeah, but I think that that kind of awareness of, gosh, if I could just relate with failure like it's an opportunity or I could relate failure as learning or I can like we've all watched enough Kobe Bryant means to kind of reinterpret or even before him, Michael Jordan, you know, I missed all these shots.

Dane: [02:24]
And with all of these things, I would have not succeeded and so on. But I actually I don't think that's the interesting conversation. I think that we know that one. We know that solution. I think what's interesting, and this is not part of our pregame, but you just put it on a silver platter was the word trigger.

Dane: [02:42]
As I think fear and trigger have something far more practical like in our real lives to consider. Like so if you don't mind can we back up a little bit. I want to interview you for a second. And I want to talk like when you say trigger.

Mitch: [02:58]
Yeah.

Dane: [02:59]
What, what. Let's let's play with this idea like a like I think of a trigger on a gun. Like I can think of a trigger like on a, on a booby trap. Maybe a trigger and again doesn't even make sense to say apart from the safety trigger.

Mitch: [03:13]
Sure.

Dane: [03:14]
It's from like safe to lethal or a trigger on a on a for a poor little rabbit. Little rabbit trap captures a little guy. But what do you mean when you say trigger?

Mitch: [03:26]
I think trigger is I mean, I don't know the actual clinical definition of it, which I'm sure one exists, and I'm sure I'll butcher it here. But trigger me means like something that stirs up something inside of you a lot of the times involuntarily. This could, you know, in a positive sense, like, you know, you see, you see something beautiful, you see something that moves you and it like, triggers something in you for maybe like someone who's addicted to smoking or something smelling cigaret smoke or seeing a pack of cigarets or something like that might trigger them, or being in a place, where they've been at or, you know, in the more dramatic sense,

Mitch: [04:04]
like if you've experienced some trauma in your life and something relates to that, it brings up, it evokes an emotion and something that that's how I would define it. Yeah, yeah. In my own words. Yeah.

Dane: [04:16]
So so what I'm hearing you say is a some, some kind of topic, some kind of idea. I hear it a lot in culture around words like that word triggers me. and I think in that specific use case, which I think is actually where I think it would be most helpful to talk about, it is worth paying attention to as it relates to voluntary discomfort.

Dane: [04:38]
So you mentioned the idea of an involuntary motion that is evoked when a certain thing is presented. Let's say a word. And I think that's an involuntary discomfort. It came my way. I'm a victim to somebody else saying a thing, and it triggered an emotion in me. And I don't like that emotion. I want that emotion to not be here, get this emotion out of my life.

Dane: [04:58]
And that's a strategy, right? Like, let's police our words so deliberately and don't mishear me like I I'm I think some words ought not be used. I like it, so I'm not trying to I'm not making a political statement when I say this I what I'm what I'm just what I'm describing here is more an existential dynamic that is at play, that comes up all the time as it relates to in, in kind of broad categories, comfort and discomfort.

Dane: [05:25]
Right. So I would prefer to feel comfortable. And you said that word and that makes me uncomfortable. And I don't want that feeling. So change your words. And somehow that's going to change me. And it does in a sense in the short term, I could kind of relax and not be as kind of revved up, but I think the goals in the rev up, I think paying attention to what happens when we're triggered and deciding how we're going to relate with that feeling that is present, that we're so desperate to get rid of, me included.

Dane: [05:59]
I think that's where there's worth. It's worth some conversation because especially as it relates to failure, because in this idea of, well, here's a phrase, what does that mean? What does that mean? Here's a phrase. So you say a word. I have a feeling I'm unconsciously often asking myself the question, what does that mean? What do these feelings mean inside of me?

Dane: [06:20]
What does this mean about you for saying that word that is now triggering this response? Now let's apply that to fear. I'm feeling scared of something, or I'm feeling like I've lost something. I'm failed at something, and I don't like the feeling that comes with the with that thing. And what does that mean when I fail? And what does that mean that you said I failed?

Dane: [06:41]
Or I have this perception that you think I am a failure, an identity statement. Now we're getting into some, like we're wading into deep waters here. That if we can play with the language a little bit and try to discern together a little bit what's going on for us, even as I'm saying, this kind of, you know, I'm precise description of my own existential experience in these kinds of moments, I wonder if listeners might might be able to tune into their own experience.

Dane: [07:09]
And and as they do in the safety of their earbuds, wherever they're sitting or, you know, wherever they're hopefully they're kind of in a safe place, they can pause for a second, go what? What does it mean when I experience failure or I think I am a failure, or I've told myself I'm a failure, or someone else has told me I'm a failure, or if it's not to relate with failure, if I'm just triggered in some way where it's either happening to me, or what if I entertain it, like voluntarily?

Dane: [07:42]
What if I consider like, well, what if I was a failure? Well, what would that mean? And what if I did fail? Well, what would I what would I do with that? Like, if that's reality, could there be resource in it? And that's some of the fundamental kind of underpinnings of what we do at Men and Women of Discomfort is we're actually interested in reality.

Dane: [08:05]
We're not interested in the stories we tell ourselves about reality. Nearly as much. And it's we can't really get to reality without telling our self story. So it's tough. But at the same time, we always know the stories are imperfect, they're not quite right, and we're interested in getting a little underneath it. And I think pausing and slowing in the midst of those things, almost like I was in a workout yesterday and my body was really uncomfortable and it did not want to continue.

Dane: [08:33]
And there was a moment in it where it was between rounds. I was kind of gasping for air, and there was a sense of like, well, here I am, this is reality. I'm uncomfortable. What do I want to do with that?

Mitch: [08:49]
Yeah.

Dane: [08:50]
So like going back to failure, for example, if indeed I failed, I, you know, I lost a game or I, I tried for something to happen. It didn't work out or even want to if you want to name it on me, like I am a failure. If you want to go that far with identity, I want to do with that reality.

Dane: [09:04]
Well, maybe I'm a failure. Up until now. What if I what from now on? What? What else? What would I have to do with failure? With the instance of failure? What? How would I want to relate with it such that from now on, I could get some resource from it, or get some utility? But again, these kinds of conversations with ourselves, they don't happen by default.

Dane: [09:25]
By default, our what we got raised at the very beginning of this, which is triggers. Triggers take us to places we don't want to go. And when we get there, we want to get out of it quickly, without processing, without slowing the train down, without deciding, gaining agency over those moments. And I've seen, like, kind of going back to Kobe and Michael and anybody else who all of us who've had moments where we've somehow redeemed failure.

Dane: [09:53]
We redeem it by recognizing what it is, looking at square in the face and going, okay, now what? What does it mean? And it turns out we have a lot to decide about that we actually can choose how to interpret. We can choose how to put it to work on our behalf. And then you go to like the Ben Franklins or whoever.

Dane: [10:12]
Was it Ben who wasn't Ben who, who did the electricity thing wasn't Ben Franklin.

Mitch: [10:18]
Ben Franklin was.

Dane: [10:19]
It Ben Franklin? Well, whoever failed a million times. And then it worked. The light.

Mitch: [10:22]
Bulb. Oh, Edison.

Dane: [10:23]
Edison, there it is. So. And then you get like. Like, well, you put up with 99 times and you go, oh, this is an iteration. You know, this is where we take a page from all the software developers who are constantly making 1.0 and 2.0 and 3.0 and looking for bugs like it's good news so that they can upgrade the the system.

Dane: [10:45]
But as I've kind of garbled all of this, I'm curious if you're listening, what occurs to you? Is there anything in this? Because because this isn't about getting the theory right. And that's my point in the front end of this conversation, it's really about what we're going to do with our real lives when we actually experience these dynamics, the triggering words, the experience of failure and so on.

Mitch: [11:07]
I mean, there are so many different directions this go, and this brought it so many different questions for me. But I think one of the things you said is like the, the facing it, acknowledging it when you when you are trigger when you do have that immediate kind of flight response. what some of the things that we can leverage to stay in that, to hold space for that, to have a conversation with that, to dig.

Mitch: [11:33]
I'm curious if it would be helpful to like, you know, you have a 5 or 7 stages of grief, depending on who you talk to. Are those stages for like these moments when we feel these moments when we're triggered? Because I think naming those, or at least talking about and thinking through those, might help us better recognize, like when that is happening and give us some handholds to to navigate that and to do the work of digging deeper and deeper into that.

Dane: [11:59]
Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think Crito comes in pretty elegantly here, right? So credo, of course, is committing, releasing, embracing, defining and owning. And we'll just focus. We've done this in past episodes, but we'll do this again today. Let's just focus on commit, release and embrace. Committing to reality is is a commitment like that up front? Like if you look at objective behavior in people's lives, most people, again, myself included, if you look at our daily lives, often are committed to unreality.

Dane: [12:32]
We're committed to fiction. We'd like to live as if things weren't always the way they are. Like my daughter won't mind me sharing. Last night I walked into her room and she was crying and I asked her why she was crying and she said because she had just read one of the incidents in this war between Israel and Palestine and the implications on real human beings of humans dying and children dying.

Dane: [12:57]
And she was just struck with the like, what would that be like if that were me or us, if we got bombed, every, you know, whatever, even if they were going after some bad actor. But we were in front of that bad actor, you know, what would that mean? And in those moments, I did not like how that felt.

Dane: [13:13]
I kind of wanted to explain it away with, you know, political theory and, and understanding the historicity of what's been going on. And gosh has been going on for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Am and as if the origin story somehow is going to take away anything to do with the present day story of the carnage and the evil of war.

Dane: [13:35]
And so I but in that moment, I was like, I'm committed to reality. So reality is I get to go, oh yes, it's just we awful. We were lamenting like we were like, this is we're failing as humans in this moment. And I'm laughing not because it's funny, because it's just so heavy and I don't know what else to do sometimes.

Dane: [13:58]
So committing. I think it's the first stage of like, I'm at least going to as much as I can bear it. Look at reality slow the train down to notice. And then the second part is when I come across things that I really don't want to experience, feelings that I would like to have, not be my experience that I see them and I and I.

Dane: [14:16]
Why are my triggers to go now? When those show up, I trigger toward like going towards the thing, not going away from the thing like I'm doing. I'm going to experience the feeling and, and I the nice thing about feelings is they're all temporary. They're going to pass. So, you know, if it's awful, it'll pass. If it's amazing, don't worry.

Dane: [14:35]
It'll pass. there's like just but and that's kind of a hopeful sense. But I also need to live in the reality of what is happening. So if I can bear it, I do it anyways. I experienced the feeling. And then the third part is, and this is the gold. And it's rarely achieved by very many humans in these days, unfortunately at least.

Dane: [14:58]
But it is achieved regularly by people we call heroes. People we look up to is they don't just kind of bear the feeling. They embrace the feeling. They have a capacity to to get into the feeling and to not just look for a shortcut or a means to like, you know, say different words. So I don't feel those things.

Dane: [15:18]
They're like, oh, you said those words. And I do feel those things. And now I'm looking at them in them. Maybe I'm outraged, or maybe I'm devastated, or maybe something else. But but in it, I think in the embrace of it, and it sounds so counter to what our world is telling us all the time of what we ought to do to to live.

Dane: [15:38]
We ought to like, pursue pleasure and avoid pain. And we're prescribing know like pain is happening and we don't want the stuff that happens to you. But what it's powerful when you can choose the painful bits in order to become the kind of person who, when painful things come your way, you actually have an ability to embrace the moment and embrace reality.

Dane: [15:58]
Because we, we, we crumble and, crumbles aren't who help us lead our way forward as a race. We need people who have a capacity to stand. And that's not that doesn't just happen on the spot. That happens from practice. So and there's more to say, of course, like if you have some success in one category in your life, don't worry, there's other categories for your deficient.

Dane: [16:23]
You're on the hot and go find them. When you find them, you can define them. And in defining them, you can own them with your behavior and do it again. But that's those stages for me have been highly resourceful because I know where I stand, like something happens and I have a feeling I don't want to experience it.

Dane: [16:37]
And I get to I have a series of decisions. Am I committed to being in reality or not? Can I? How long can I bear it when I don't want to bear it? And what if I can go one more step and actually embrace it? Like hug it not because it's good, but because it's real? That that, I think, is what opens up the transcendence and purpose and meaning and discovery and the kind of goal that is just rare.

Dane: [17:03]
And and therefore I'm valuable.

Mitch: [17:05]
Yeah, yeah. It's like what you're saying, me saying it moves from just like reframing to like, redeeming. Almost. Yes. There's something much deeper there.

Dane: [17:15]
Yes.

Mitch: [17:16]
Yeah. For for those that are watching or listening that are hearing this and are like, yes, I agree or have heard the stories of, you know, the, you know, you got to put up shots to make up or, you know, whatever, you miss every shot you don't take like okay. Yeah, that's that's great. But maybe they don't. They feel so far away from this reality.

Mitch: [17:40]
Maybe, you know, to use you. It's like if you had some healthy family with a thriving marriage come in and say, yeah, it's super simple. Just, you know, love, forgive, go on dates and all. Be merry. Yeah. You have this group of people that didn't grow up with healthy families and examples, and this feels so distant, and unrealistic.

Mitch: [18:04]
Like what? What are. Where's the hope? There was our first steps because I'm sure there is a surplus of failure, a surplus of triggering moments, that are coming our way. And really, it's kind of an opportunity costs that were, that were not at least kind of leaning in or leveraging or at best, redeeming these situations. Yeah.

Dane: [18:26]
Yeah, I love that question so much. I come from the family you're describing and, you know, single mom, two older brothers. Not only did my dad die when I was very young, my dad's dad died when my dad was very young. And then of course, the legacy of that is he I grow up having kids. I'm like, what day am I going to die?

Dane: [18:42]
Is it today or tomorrow or you know, and and then other, you know, unique dynamics in my family and every family has unique dynamics that are very troubling and difficult. And they extend into our adulthood and we replicate this in our own kids, and we pray therapy and other things will help them get to better places. But I would I would say your question is so helpful because it's really like, well, how do I get started?

Dane: [19:03]
What do I do? And I have found that this is where our nature can be very helpful. We can pick very lightweight things that actually we know up front scientifically are better for us. Like, let's just take eating well, or drinking enough water, or getting enough sleep or exercising. Just basics like just basics. Here's what I know for sure.

Dane: [19:26]
By default, y'all don't want to do those things like you don't. You don't want to get up and do the thing. And and I know that now some of you are practiced and certain some of these and you're like, yeah, I do like doing this things. I get that. But there's some other thing that you don't, you know, I work out of CrossFit every day, at least six days a week.

Dane: [19:43]
And when I'm when I'm not injured and there are some amazing athletes in there who, when they walk out of the box, they don't have an amazing life. They have kind of one compartment where they do the hard thing, but the other parts they don't. But what's great about is about a healthy life. And even just in that very regular embodied sense is there is so many options to start with.

Dane: [20:03]
And I'll just speak from my own experience. For me, it started with flossing my teeth. You know, I didn't want to floss my teeth. So what I did was I said, I want to be a flosser. And I learned from James Clear this clever thing called a habit stack. And where you take an existing habit that you know you're going to do every day, no matter what, and you just drop in that new habit you want to do just before it.

Dane: [20:23]
You don't get permission to do this habit that you love doing until this habit happens and the habit that I wanted to install was flossing in the habit that I do every day was emptying my bladder. When I wake up in the morning when I want to go pee, and I just committed that I don't get to pee unless I floss beforehand.

Dane: [20:39]
And I haven't missed a day of flossing since. Like, it's just kind of the way it works. Like there have been. That's not fair. There have been days where I've run out of floss, but very few maybe count on two hands over the last decade and and probably more like one hand. And and now it's actually moved to.

Dane: [20:55]
Well, I don't like to get in my, my patterns. My point is simply you can start with very little amounts of habit. And it could literally be like doing the dishes at the end of your meal. it could be cleaning out the coffee pot and setting things out before you go to bed at night. Like something that's just a little bit not your default, not your but, you know, would be good for you.

Dane: [21:17]
It's a little, you know, it's it's uncomfortable and and so and you might say, well okay, that's kind of ridiculous. Like how is flossing connecting to increasing my capacity to sit with my daughter when she's crying over people murdered in a war. And I you'd be surprised at how direct a line there is between developing a discipline in my life around something I don't want to do, so that in another context, in my life, I can apply the same kind of mental and spiritual muscles to be present with my daughter in a moment when I don't want to experience those things, and it can feel Herculean to get from A to B, but and truth

Dane: [21:56]
is, as you get into it, if you don't miss A day of the fang, the floss, maybe you add to flossing, maybe some other things along the way. Over time you get there much faster than you think. In the moment, it feels like it's never going to get there, and then you start getting there and you're like, that was so fast.

Dane: [22:13]
How did that you know, we see this every round. It men and women. I've discomfort people come in. They're like, I really want to lose weight. It's taking so long I don't want to do it. And then like 12 weeks later they've lost 40 pounds. And you know, we see it. Everything go round and they go, how did that happen?

Dane: [22:29]
And really what they say is, how did I live like that for so long. And our point isn't even to lose weight. It's to go, okay, so good you started there. Where else does that show up in your life? Where else is there gold in those hills of doing the thing you don't feel like doing, so that you can develop the capacity to do things in a whole host of areas of your life.

Dane: [22:50]
So I don't think it's a good idea to start with. If you if you're triggered by everything and your failure is at every door and you're just desperate to not experience that, what should I do? I think probably a pathway to get to your capacity to navigate those worlds is to start with something a little closer to home, something that you've always said to yourself, I always want to do that.

Dane: [23:09]
Well, what's minimally viable for you to do? And it's not the goal because it's not really goal oriented. It's really the habit. It's really the deciding who's the kind of person you would be if you did these things over and over and over again. Well, what is that minimally viable thing, and how do you install that into your life so that you never miss a day again in your life, like, and then build from there?

Dane: [23:30]
Because there's, there's it's funny, there's no rush to build a disciplined life, but there's massive urgency. And if you're not in a rush, you will get there so quickly. Like it'll blow your mind. But it requires a consistency, a steadiness. So every 24 hour you go again. And I would add, if you really want to get serious about it, build community around it.

Dane: [23:51]
Don't do it alone. Doing it alone is for the Marlboro Man, who's a fictional character who dies of cancer at the end of the day. Like, like you don't want to be that guy. You got to find your people. And it's one of the reasons, well, probably the reason why we created men and women of discomfort is because if we don't do it alone, we do it together, even though it's entirely an individualized effort doing individualized efforts with other individuals who are doing similar efforts has profound power in sustaining us over time.

Mitch: [24:22]
Mitch: [24:25]
There there's so much more we can talk about, but I'll have to leave the listeners and viewers with that cliffhanger of tune in. Subscribe for future episodes and conversations, because there's so much.

Dane: [24:36]
That's that, like, that's what they.

Mitch: [24:37]
Say. Smash the like button. Well, thank you Dane. Here's to many more failures and many more just opportunities for redemption.

Dane: [24:51]
We say one more thing about that because.

Mitch: [24:52]
Yeah, please, the goal.

Dane: [24:53]
Isn't to fail.

Mitch: [24:55]
Like yeah.

Dane: [24:55]
Yes that like it's more the recognition that failure is inevitable. The goal is to get better, to get that corner, to wake up, to have fun, to enjoy this life, to bring some levity, to go to the dentist. And I'm not gonna mad at you cause you've lost your teeth like, enjoy your life because of the choices you made to live an enjoyable life.

Dane: [25:14]
That's what we want for people. It's just what's what's shocking is the prescription for people to have a great life is to have a comfortable life. And that doesn't ever yield a great life. It just doesn't. You get a comfortable life when you choose a discomforting life. That's it's this ironic thing, but it's the nature of what it means to be a human being.

Dane: [25:36]
We've known this for millennia. It's just an odd practice. Tradition, and yet it's entirely available. And if you've been listening to this video or audio for this long to this point, you clearly are either really weird that you're listening to something like this and you're not interested, or you're clearly interested, and you'd like to become weird with us.

Dane: [25:55]
In which case, welcome to the party. We're so glad you're here.

Mitch: [25:59]
I mean, I can't not tell them where to find out more information. So right below that, like, button and everything that you just smashed, we've got links to learn more about men and women of discomfort. And you can always check out our website at MWOD.io. Thank you Dan.

Dane: [26:18]
Thanks, Mitch.

Mitch: [26:19]
Appreciate it.

Dane: [26:20]
Men and Women of Discomfort is our membership community and we are open to everyone. But keep in mind our tagline is it's probably not for you if we're wrong about that or if you want to find out for yourself, you can find us at MWOD.io

Dane: [26:35]
All the information material we're sharing. But in this podcast or anything connected to men & women of discomfort or Flying S inc. It's all for general information purposes only. You should not rely on this material or information on this podcast. The basis for making any kind of decision. We do our best to get the date correct. We do a lot of due diligence, but the responsibility is on you to make sure that you're in sync with your own medical professionals that you wouldn't see.

Dane: [26:52]
What we're offering here is somehow a warranty or representation in any kind expressed or implied about this thing complete, accurate, reliable, suitable or comprehensive in any kind of way. It's critical you own your agency, which is part of everything we do a minimum of discomfort. We invite you to take them what they're offering and consider for yourself. And if it's helpful, please do take advantage of it.

Dane: [27:07]
But if you do, it's you who is taking the opportunity. And we're assuming that you've done your due diligence with it. Thanks.